One man's whining is another's man suggestion. I agree the price is fair and I know first-hand of Neil's value as a teacher. That said, someone like me doesn't see enough relevant content to make it worthwhile. As an advanced player I simply don't want someone else choosing what I learn. I have specific needs and wants and if TG decides it's not going to offer that, it's fine. I merely SUGGESTED it as an option for someone like me who knows specifically what he wants help with. I never said anything about wanting it free--I'm not that naive.Let's put an end to this constant whining about paying per song or cherry picking the site. It's getting really tiresome! You want this quality for free? Put up your hard earned coins or shut up!!
Request for alternative pricing
BigBear wrote:
You are not the problem and I apologize if I insinuated that or I offended you! You have been a major contributer to this site and all of us have benefited from your knowledsge and experience.
There has been a constant stream of "suggestions" from people who don't participate in this site and are looking for free, high quality guitar lessons. Did you notice that Neil doesn't ever respond to these? I beleive he intends to let the market speak for his work.
Advanced guitarist don't have many options, especially online. Frankly, the more advanced you are the fewer people out there who are even qualified to instruct you. And economically I seriously doubt you are the target market. For every one of you there are a 1000 beginners or a 100 intermediates like me. Beginners don't want to pay monthly because there are so many new guitarist resources for free and anybody can teach (not all equally well). And YouTube has so much to offer free. So the guy who has been getting it for free comes to this site and complains because what Neil produces isn't free.
But I think Neil is focusing on the advanced beginner to solid intermediate. We can't often find what we need for free so we have to pay for it either with specific books and DVD's, live teachers or pay-for-play services like this one.
The TARGET program isn't perfect for me either. I really wish that I could download the videos so I didn't have to sit at a computer to learn. My music room isn't close to my computer and without some expensive networking gear it's hard to make it work. But Neil has hit the nail on the head for my music tastes and styles. Everything in life is a compromise.
So my comments were directed at the trolls and not the musicians. I commend Neil for what he has done and maybe someday he will be able to challenge even players like you!
Happy Playin'
There has been a constant stream of "suggestions" from people who don't participate in this site and are looking for free, high quality guitar lessons. Did you notice that Neil doesn't ever respond to these? I beleive he intends to let the market speak for his work.
Advanced guitarist don't have many options, especially online. Frankly, the more advanced you are the fewer people out there who are even qualified to instruct you. And economically I seriously doubt you are the target market. For every one of you there are a 1000 beginners or a 100 intermediates like me. Beginners don't want to pay monthly because there are so many new guitarist resources for free and anybody can teach (not all equally well). And YouTube has so much to offer free. So the guy who has been getting it for free comes to this site and complains because what Neil produces isn't free.
But I think Neil is focusing on the advanced beginner to solid intermediate. We can't often find what we need for free so we have to pay for it either with specific books and DVD's, live teachers or pay-for-play services like this one.
The TARGET program isn't perfect for me either. I really wish that I could download the videos so I didn't have to sit at a computer to learn. My music room isn't close to my computer and without some expensive networking gear it's hard to make it work. But Neil has hit the nail on the head for my music tastes and styles. Everything in life is a compromise.
So my comments were directed at the trolls and not the musicians. I commend Neil for what he has done and maybe someday he will be able to challenge even players like you!
Happy Playin'
gingold wrote:
You got it buddy! Same at ya!Well said, BigBear! Thanks for explaining your previous post. You are always one of my favorite "posters" and knew there must have been something else going on besides what I wrote.
Keep pickin' and a-grinnin'!
I'm an advanced beginner. And yes, I plan on becoming at the very least, an advanced intermediate player. I'll likely never be an expert, but I'll be sure and have fun with it.
As far as the pricing goes, Yes, Neil has a right to earn a living from the work he and his team (We are looking at 3 people I think for all you out there calculating his income, be sure and take that into account...)
But, I also have worked in the software field and it would actually be fairly easy to have one system that takes both pricing structures without problem. You have a membership database already.
Add a variable (field) to each video. The index key would be a good choice. In each persons profile, (membership info table) they would have a list of video key numbers that they are allowed to access. If they are a paid monthly member, then they would have all videos by default, (Add a true/false variable to the Members Info Table for this). Everything is still on the same server and not downloaded to someones machine to be 'youtubed' all over the net. Neil still retains control and he can charge what he wants either way.
Neil could make each song so that you hit a point where you are purchasing a certain amount, it would be better to buy the monthly.
Now, that sounds like a TOTALLY GUITARS type solution to me. Makes everyone happy.
:cheer:
As far as the pricing goes, Yes, Neil has a right to earn a living from the work he and his team (We are looking at 3 people I think for all you out there calculating his income, be sure and take that into account...)
But, I also have worked in the software field and it would actually be fairly easy to have one system that takes both pricing structures without problem. You have a membership database already.
Add a variable (field) to each video. The index key would be a good choice. In each persons profile, (membership info table) they would have a list of video key numbers that they are allowed to access. If they are a paid monthly member, then they would have all videos by default, (Add a true/false variable to the Members Info Table for this). Everything is still on the same server and not downloaded to someones machine to be 'youtubed' all over the net. Neil still retains control and he can charge what he wants either way.
Neil could make each song so that you hit a point where you are purchasing a certain amount, it would be better to buy the monthly.
Now, that sounds like a TOTALLY GUITARS type solution to me. Makes everyone happy.
:cheer:
Sounds like a win/win solution regarding options for pricing for songs is out there some where.
The only way to get to an option is through communication. Stay in the communication process long enough, and in most cases a win/win can be achieved. Assuming both parties are open.
From my brief exposure to this sight, I can tell Neil really loves music, guitar, and teaching.
I say give him the final say in what goes down. He seems to have a great deal of empathy and understand how those of us who want to progress feel.
I would have to say to cut off communication on this subject prematurely would be a mistake.
Also I would say ease up on the trolls; I would venture to say at one time we all trolled, and probably still do.
In my case, I searching for guitar information because I love the instrument, and want to learn anything and everything I can.
Not all troll are cheep skates, I prefer to give them the benefit of the doubt and choose to think they just love the guitar and want as much information as possible so they can improve and play the instrument they love to the best of their ability.
If there is free stuff so much the better. It is better to give than to receive.
Unlike the fellow Neil spoke about on the web cast that strolled into his shop and wanted to take regular lesson from Neal daily, not all of us have that kind of money, so shopping for bargains is a way of life. Not true evidently for others.
I found this site trolling for " free finger picking guitar lessons" ,after reviewing the site, I got a free membership ...EXCUSE ME....., but I am very serious about target membership, it just need to suit my needs, financial, and otherwise, and my learning style.
As a teacher, Neil no doubt is well aware that people learn in different way and on different levels.
For me, all my surfing is a effort to find the right site, a site where I can get involved with others who love the guitar, and want to learn as much as possible.
All the suggestions and comments from Form contributors, I feel are sincere efforts to contribute to help produce a site that will suit the need of as many players as possible.
All forum contributors should be respectful and should be treated with respect and dignity.
I explore this site, almost daily, looking, learning, testing, to see if it works for me. I watched the web cast last night, interesting and informative, however it was very difficult to locate the first video in the series ( 1 of 10 ) Video names did not designate which was the first, so I had to open each one to find which one was the first.
The chap that interviewed Neil, and who responded to a contributors comments by saying . “We don't need people like that was a big turn off.
Well there it is.
Jack
The only way to get to an option is through communication. Stay in the communication process long enough, and in most cases a win/win can be achieved. Assuming both parties are open.
From my brief exposure to this sight, I can tell Neil really loves music, guitar, and teaching.
I say give him the final say in what goes down. He seems to have a great deal of empathy and understand how those of us who want to progress feel.
I would have to say to cut off communication on this subject prematurely would be a mistake.
Also I would say ease up on the trolls; I would venture to say at one time we all trolled, and probably still do.
In my case, I searching for guitar information because I love the instrument, and want to learn anything and everything I can.
Not all troll are cheep skates, I prefer to give them the benefit of the doubt and choose to think they just love the guitar and want as much information as possible so they can improve and play the instrument they love to the best of their ability.
If there is free stuff so much the better. It is better to give than to receive.
Unlike the fellow Neil spoke about on the web cast that strolled into his shop and wanted to take regular lesson from Neal daily, not all of us have that kind of money, so shopping for bargains is a way of life. Not true evidently for others.
I found this site trolling for " free finger picking guitar lessons" ,after reviewing the site, I got a free membership ...EXCUSE ME....., but I am very serious about target membership, it just need to suit my needs, financial, and otherwise, and my learning style.
As a teacher, Neil no doubt is well aware that people learn in different way and on different levels.
For me, all my surfing is a effort to find the right site, a site where I can get involved with others who love the guitar, and want to learn as much as possible.
All the suggestions and comments from Form contributors, I feel are sincere efforts to contribute to help produce a site that will suit the need of as many players as possible.
All forum contributors should be respectful and should be treated with respect and dignity.
I explore this site, almost daily, looking, learning, testing, to see if it works for me. I watched the web cast last night, interesting and informative, however it was very difficult to locate the first video in the series ( 1 of 10 ) Video names did not designate which was the first, so I had to open each one to find which one was the first.
The chap that interviewed Neil, and who responded to a contributors comments by saying . “We don't need people like that was a big turn off.
Well there it is.
Jack
I posted this original request, and I'd like to clarify some things. First, although I am new to this forum I am neither a "troll" nor a "whiner" as one person said. My request was respectful and courteous, and I'm sorry some people took it negatively.
I made my request believing this was a potential Win-Win situation where some of us who have been hit hard by the recession and/or have limited learning time could still benefit from Neil's talents on a per-song basis, and at the same time Neil could receive additional income (perhaps substantial) from that alternative audience who is unable for whatever reasons to participate in TARGET. I think the number of positive responses here suggest that there really could be a decent market.
I was not suggesting that a per-song policy replace TARGET, so I don't understand why some people became upset. What does it hurt to have two programs in place? The monthly plan is excellent for those who have the time and money to benefit from it, while the per-song program would benefit everyone else. I also never mentioned wanting anything for free, although I've certainly appreciated the earlier free lessons. Instead, I said I would be happy to pay for individual songs.
And call me naive, but it never entered my mind that someone would thwart the system by making illegal copies of downloads or giving away/selling materials. But there are ways to prevent this unethical and illegal activity and safeguard against it, so this argument is not a good reason to not implement the plan.
At the risk of being pedantic, change always begins with asking questions. If no one ever asked questions or made requests for new things, nothing would ever change. So I'm sorry if my original request was annoying to some people who are happy with the status quo. Regardless of whether Neil responds or not (and I suspect it's because he's busy preparing lessons and for performances, not because of the topic,) I don't intend to repeat my request because I've already made it once, and to do so again WOULD be annoying.
Sorry for the length. That's all I have to say about that because I'm gonna shut up now and play my guitar. (Paraphrasing Forest Gump AND Frank Zappa.)
Cheers.
I made my request believing this was a potential Win-Win situation where some of us who have been hit hard by the recession and/or have limited learning time could still benefit from Neil's talents on a per-song basis, and at the same time Neil could receive additional income (perhaps substantial) from that alternative audience who is unable for whatever reasons to participate in TARGET. I think the number of positive responses here suggest that there really could be a decent market.
I was not suggesting that a per-song policy replace TARGET, so I don't understand why some people became upset. What does it hurt to have two programs in place? The monthly plan is excellent for those who have the time and money to benefit from it, while the per-song program would benefit everyone else. I also never mentioned wanting anything for free, although I've certainly appreciated the earlier free lessons. Instead, I said I would be happy to pay for individual songs.
And call me naive, but it never entered my mind that someone would thwart the system by making illegal copies of downloads or giving away/selling materials. But there are ways to prevent this unethical and illegal activity and safeguard against it, so this argument is not a good reason to not implement the plan.
At the risk of being pedantic, change always begins with asking questions. If no one ever asked questions or made requests for new things, nothing would ever change. So I'm sorry if my original request was annoying to some people who are happy with the status quo. Regardless of whether Neil responds or not (and I suspect it's because he's busy preparing lessons and for performances, not because of the topic,) I don't intend to repeat my request because I've already made it once, and to do so again WOULD be annoying.
Sorry for the length. That's all I have to say about that because I'm gonna shut up now and play my guitar. (Paraphrasing Forest Gump AND Frank Zappa.)
Cheers.