Like most I don't like ads, but fact we don't actually pay a great deal for what is the best tuition on the web right now. Hopefully the actual Target side will stay ad free, although yes Amazon is there, but with a purpose for the members. The sidebar on the Forums is somewhat large and could be smaller, but the ad there is one which also supports us, it has been asked many times for Neil to provide Gpro files of the songs, this ad leads us to the best tab player on the Net, so its a quality product which can aid us in our journey. If Target uses Gpro files then you may go buy the programme but then come back here to use it.
This is a business lets not forget that, it needs revenue to keep going, its just a case of drawing the line and getting balance. Alternative more expensive membership , that I don't want to see.
So Tg keep the balance, at the end of the day we are customers and as has been often said we can vote quite easily on this issue.
My vote stay where I am providing balance is good, I trust Neil and Co to look out for the core group who helped found this phenomena
EDIT Oops Matt is pretty quick off the mark. Matt you still got my support
Whats up with the Advertisements?
Hey all
My guys jumped the gun and got the ad blocks up as blanks and not formatted right , before I could announce them, but oh well...
So some of these comments are a little off to say the least..I appreciate your feedback, but some of you sure are quick to go off on tangents that dwell on the worst ,but as we are still working away on stuff live, I will respond to some of the questions...and clear this up..
1- To make it really really clear for anyone that still does not realise this - we are a FOR PROFIT business..without income we cannot grow the business, make no mistake we are going to look at all the ways that we can add revenue, and this will always be ways in which we feel comfortable and ties into what we and this site is all about.
2-The ads we show will be for NON-competing products, that we recommend, and as you can see at present their is only 1, which you guys requested (protools).., the other spots are blank because we are yet to decide any other relevant programs
3- some of the spaces will be for sponsors, guitar makers , bands we want to support etc , even for our own stuff ...
4- The idea that somehow this will effect the content quality is frankly hysteria...and Im just not going to ad anything more to that ludicrous proposal, if you think the quality is dropping you can make your own choice as to stay or not..for us the program is the thing that brings us the most joy and customer loyalty..
5- the ads may be in target if we are recommending stuff that is useful...still undecided on that - remember - if you dont want to click them dont
6- we Will never ever be promoting non relevant stuff.like "make a bazillion from home in your underwear"..its stuff we all agree on is great...and if we get paid a little commision instead of someone else..whay begrudge us that..most of it comes straight back into here..in terms of more development
7-Suggestions for products are welcome thats how we decided on Guitar Pro 5 for now being the only thing going...
8-advertisements to non -competing products are not an issue..sites that do other things are..we will never create a protools competitor, or start making guitars to compete with Santa Cruz..or run a TAB site..so they are fair game..
9-Someone mentioned that when we focus on the dollar they would leave..hmmmm.....in all of my succesful business career, when companies that combine passion and quality with that focus on increasing revenue in sustainable ways the actual products become better and better and better, and that is our goal, to be the best bar none..so I will never agree with that statement..and now its public..and frankly not open to debate..without income this would never have been created..
10- someone also mentioned that the fees were not insubstantial , and equated it to public radio...um we dont get donaations..we are not a non-profit, and the 20 bucks a month we get is ludicrously low..after fees, overheads, and the sheer time we put into this..in a years time when the content has tripled or more, and the founders at this price are looking back ...
11- We are already being robbed..and stolen from..some unscrupulous people that we have tracked down have been taking content from here, and doing alsorts of tricky things to not pay even the token fee..so if you happen to be reading this we know who you are by the way..(and you will be banned and then pursued), so this stuff is hard hard work...Neil and I and Big Jim are pulling hours that frankly no-one should at present to get you an amazing bunch of features and content before xmas ..
12-The majority of the users here are not Target members..and so yes whomever mentioned that point, you are dead on, they become part of the supporting revenue to develop more content, more features etc etc ...
13- anyways a storm in a teacup - If you really feel the need to comment further, then hows about looking at the track record, and what we have done, and give us the benefit of the doubt, before mentioning Bernie Madoff in the same paragraph as us...that is frankly insulting..
yes I am a little sensitive...behind the scenes the last few weeks we have put in a hercularian effort to give you Target members many times what we promised..Neil has been working his backside of filming, I have been pushing him so hard to get so much great stuff to you guys...the tech team has been working double time to get you the content, and have all the features we want to bring you, the service levels we are providing to consumers who have any issues, you name it..so...
look for the content that is being released today, ill be posting that in 20 or so minutes, look for what we have coming..if you dont like the product in the ad, dont click it..simple..
Thats it for now - back to normal programming
Grab your guitars and concentrate on whats important
Cheers
Matt
My guys jumped the gun and got the ad blocks up as blanks and not formatted right , before I could announce them, but oh well...
So some of these comments are a little off to say the least..I appreciate your feedback, but some of you sure are quick to go off on tangents that dwell on the worst ,but as we are still working away on stuff live, I will respond to some of the questions...and clear this up..
1- To make it really really clear for anyone that still does not realise this - we are a FOR PROFIT business..without income we cannot grow the business, make no mistake we are going to look at all the ways that we can add revenue, and this will always be ways in which we feel comfortable and ties into what we and this site is all about.
2-The ads we show will be for NON-competing products, that we recommend, and as you can see at present their is only 1, which you guys requested (protools).., the other spots are blank because we are yet to decide any other relevant programs
3- some of the spaces will be for sponsors, guitar makers , bands we want to support etc , even for our own stuff ...
4- The idea that somehow this will effect the content quality is frankly hysteria...and Im just not going to ad anything more to that ludicrous proposal, if you think the quality is dropping you can make your own choice as to stay or not..for us the program is the thing that brings us the most joy and customer loyalty..
5- the ads may be in target if we are recommending stuff that is useful...still undecided on that - remember - if you dont want to click them dont
6- we Will never ever be promoting non relevant stuff.like "make a bazillion from home in your underwear"..its stuff we all agree on is great...and if we get paid a little commision instead of someone else..whay begrudge us that..most of it comes straight back into here..in terms of more development
7-Suggestions for products are welcome thats how we decided on Guitar Pro 5 for now being the only thing going...
8-advertisements to non -competing products are not an issue..sites that do other things are..we will never create a protools competitor, or start making guitars to compete with Santa Cruz..or run a TAB site..so they are fair game..
9-Someone mentioned that when we focus on the dollar they would leave..hmmmm.....in all of my succesful business career, when companies that combine passion and quality with that focus on increasing revenue in sustainable ways the actual products become better and better and better, and that is our goal, to be the best bar none..so I will never agree with that statement..and now its public..and frankly not open to debate..without income this would never have been created..
10- someone also mentioned that the fees were not insubstantial , and equated it to public radio...um we dont get donaations..we are not a non-profit, and the 20 bucks a month we get is ludicrously low..after fees, overheads, and the sheer time we put into this..in a years time when the content has tripled or more, and the founders at this price are looking back ...
11- We are already being robbed..and stolen from..some unscrupulous people that we have tracked down have been taking content from here, and doing alsorts of tricky things to not pay even the token fee..so if you happen to be reading this we know who you are by the way..(and you will be banned and then pursued), so this stuff is hard hard work...Neil and I and Big Jim are pulling hours that frankly no-one should at present to get you an amazing bunch of features and content before xmas ..
12-The majority of the users here are not Target members..and so yes whomever mentioned that point, you are dead on, they become part of the supporting revenue to develop more content, more features etc etc ...
13- anyways a storm in a teacup - If you really feel the need to comment further, then hows about looking at the track record, and what we have done, and give us the benefit of the doubt, before mentioning Bernie Madoff in the same paragraph as us...that is frankly insulting..
yes I am a little sensitive...behind the scenes the last few weeks we have put in a hercularian effort to give you Target members many times what we promised..Neil has been working his backside of filming, I have been pushing him so hard to get so much great stuff to you guys...the tech team has been working double time to get you the content, and have all the features we want to bring you, the service levels we are providing to consumers who have any issues, you name it..so...
look for the content that is being released today, ill be posting that in 20 or so minutes, look for what we have coming..if you dont like the product in the ad, dont click it..simple..
Thats it for now - back to normal programming
Grab your guitars and concentrate on whats important
Cheers
Matt
fjvdb wrote:
My vote is to let them run their ads -- if that's what it takes to keep this site's content fresh and growing. It's not like TV where we have to sit there and gawk at a commercial for 30 seconds. If we don't like the ad, we can ignore them and refuse to click through on them. What I don't want is the type of intrusive ad that sites like ESPN foist on us. Before we can watch a sports video, we have to sit through a 30-second commercial. It's maddening. But static, click-through ads are fine by me.
- Dennis (in Seattle)
I think "Another 2 cents" is an interesting choice of words -- because that's what TG will earn if no one except non-members sees these ads. TG's ability to charge money for ad space is based on the number of impressions those ads will get. If no one sees the ads but non-members, the number of impressions drops considerably, and with it the amount TG can charge advertisers.BigBear wrote:This can be done one better, actually -- TARGET members when logged in wouldn't need to (shouldn't have to?) see any ads anywhere, including on the Forum or in the TARGET only areas. Being a software engineer that develops very high volume, user-context driven web applications for a living, I know well that web sites have an opportunity to customize content in a way that public radio can't. While radio is necessarily the same on every radio that receives it, this needn't be the case for web pages, and in fact already isn't the case on this site. Those that pay, once logged in, can have their content customized so that they get not only premium access to certain areas but also so that individual page elements are/aren't delivered/enabled. Ads really only need to be delivered to the free loaders.1. There is an implied agreement that the TARGET program should be ad-free. This is consistant with other websites where if you pay-to-play there are no ads. All TARGET-only areas should be ad free. If you are a free user you get the full force of non-stop ads. Life's about choices I tell my kids.
I encourage the TG crew to explore this option.
Another 2 cents.
My vote is to let them run their ads -- if that's what it takes to keep this site's content fresh and growing. It's not like TV where we have to sit there and gawk at a commercial for 30 seconds. If we don't like the ad, we can ignore them and refuse to click through on them. What I don't want is the type of intrusive ad that sites like ESPN foist on us. Before we can watch a sports video, we have to sit through a 30-second commercial. It's maddening. But static, click-through ads are fine by me.
- Dennis (in Seattle)
-
Music Junkie
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2009 7:17 am
- Status: Offline
dennisg wrote:
MJ
Dennis: Good point! That is what Matt was saying..."If you don't like it, then don't click it". I think what some might have been saying (myself included) is that the adds looked rather large when they first showed up and the forum posts shrunk down quite a bit. Just a new look that was kinda funky (technical term there). I am with you. If it keeps the content fresh, and it does not interfere with the use of the site, then who cares..... Also, as long as they don't turn into the really annoying type that pop up every time you try to look at something, it should be no problem.fjvdb wrote:I think "Another 2 cents" is an interesting choice of words -- because that's what TG will earn if no one except non-members sees these ads. TG's ability to charge money for ad space is based on the number of impressions those ads will get. If no one sees the ads but non-members, the number of impressions drops considerably, and with it the amount TG can charge advertisers.BigBear wrote:This can be done one better, actually -- TARGET members when logged in wouldn't need to (shouldn't have to?) see any ads anywhere, including on the Forum or in the TARGET only areas. Being a software engineer that develops very high volume, user-context driven web applications for a living, I know well that web sites have an opportunity to customize content in a way that public radio can't. While radio is necessarily the same on every radio that receives it, this needn't be the case for web pages, and in fact already isn't the case on this site. Those that pay, once logged in, can have their content customized so that they get not only premium access to certain areas but also so that individual page elements are/aren't delivered/enabled. Ads really only need to be delivered to the free loaders.1. There is an implied agreement that the TARGET program should be ad-free. This is consistant with other websites where if you pay-to-play there are no ads. All TARGET-only areas should be ad free. If you are a free user you get the full force of non-stop ads. Life's about choices I tell my kids.
I encourage the TG crew to explore this option.
Another 2 cents.
My vote is to let them run their ads -- if that's what it takes to keep this site's content fresh and growing. It's not like TV where we have to sit there and gawk at a commercial for 30 seconds. If we don't like the ad, we can ignore them and refuse to click through on them. What I don't want is the type of intrusive ad that sites like ESPN foist on us. Before we can watch a sports video, we have to sit through a 30-second commercial. It's maddening. But static, click-through ads are fine by me.
- Dennis (in Seattle)
MJ
I accept the proposition that this is a business and commercial decisions need to be made. I don't really have a problem with the type of ads TG intends to display but if I did I would respectfully point that out. In turn as a paying client, I would expect my opinion to be heard, provided it is expressed without abuse, that's smart business practice also.
I think these guys at TG do work very hard to provide a good service for the membership and have every right to make decisions about future profitability. Clients always have freedom to chose, and everyone involved here has the right to be treated with respect.
I think these guys at TG do work very hard to provide a good service for the membership and have every right to make decisions about future profitability. Clients always have freedom to chose, and everyone involved here has the right to be treated with respect.
'Much ado about nothing'. First of all, internet advertising is much more difficult to sell than you would think. The international base of the members and viewers makes that even more difficult. And finally, many of the customers that could benefit most from TG ads don't advertise. I think everyone should take a step back and wait and see. While I wish Matt and the TG staff well, I think they are facing a daunting task.
Bill
Bill
Matt- As one of the old moss backs on this site I'll add a couple of further observations:
1. The ads shocked us. We didn't know they were coming and change creates fear of reducing something good.
2. The huge amount of "free" stuff on the site may create the impression that the site is free. As you've pointed out many times it takes time and money to develop and manage a site this ambitious.
3. There is no need to justify the $20/month membership cost, or even to discuss it except to say that in the cold, harsh light of capitalism we have an economic relationship where you as the seller, provide a service (some might say product) for a price that you set. It is neither too high or too low. If you are meeting your business model goals ie. getting and retaining as many paying members as you need, the price is just right!
We as the buyers evaluate that cost-benefit relationship every month and decide if we want to plunk down for what you are selling. I won't get into economic theory but everytime you change the "deal" the buyers, us, must re-evaluate the relationship. If you raise the price you may lose members, if you place ads you may lose members. If Neil wears a blue Hawaiian shirt on Thursday you may lose members. You have no control over that. After you make the offer, you have to stand back and see what the effect is. If what you are offering isn't achieving your financial goals only you can change the offer. Obviously, the offer is pretty darned good because this site has exploded in popularity.
4. It doesn't matter what the ads are for, that's totally your decision. They could be for Viagra and we really don't have a voice in that decision. The only choice we really have is to re-evaluate our buying decision. If the content remains at its current high quality it probably doesn't matter. See #3 again.
5. The fear of diminishing quality is a valid concern and should not be dismissed so quickly. We have all seen businesses over-reach to where the quality has suffered immensely. You guys have generated enormous customer loyalty. You may not even realize how much. All businesses live and die by their customer loyalty. It should never be taken for granted when valid concerns are raised.
6. You don't ever need to justify earning a profit, at least in this country. We get it! Make all the profit you can and plow some of it back into making your business even better! Pay yourselves hansomely for all your hard work! Good on ya Mate for doing so!! :laugh:
7. With probably 20,000 non-paying forum members you are wise to pull them into the revenue stream somehow. Just keep in mind that we are not all equal. TARGET members made a decision to pay their hard earned cash, whether it is substantial or not, into this program. They deserve more consideration when it comes to advertising than non-members do.
8. Finally, don't be so sensitive!! I read every post on this thread several times and there is nothing that attacks you or the program in a negative way! These people are just presenting their views and concerns. People don't like change. You have read over and over, through a constant stream of praise, how happy the overwhelming majority of us with this program. We KNOW you guys work your butts off to provide this product. If you didn't, it wouldn't be this good. And we are very grateful. To achieve this level of excellence requires hard work. And we hope that it pays off for all of you financially to the same degree we become better musicians!!
Bottom line, these ads shouldn't be a deal breaker in whatever form they take. We don't like them but we accept them as inevitable. It's really just that simple!
Please keep up the outstanding work and thanks for listening to us!
Cheers! :cheer:
1. The ads shocked us. We didn't know they were coming and change creates fear of reducing something good.
2. The huge amount of "free" stuff on the site may create the impression that the site is free. As you've pointed out many times it takes time and money to develop and manage a site this ambitious.
3. There is no need to justify the $20/month membership cost, or even to discuss it except to say that in the cold, harsh light of capitalism we have an economic relationship where you as the seller, provide a service (some might say product) for a price that you set. It is neither too high or too low. If you are meeting your business model goals ie. getting and retaining as many paying members as you need, the price is just right!
We as the buyers evaluate that cost-benefit relationship every month and decide if we want to plunk down for what you are selling. I won't get into economic theory but everytime you change the "deal" the buyers, us, must re-evaluate the relationship. If you raise the price you may lose members, if you place ads you may lose members. If Neil wears a blue Hawaiian shirt on Thursday you may lose members. You have no control over that. After you make the offer, you have to stand back and see what the effect is. If what you are offering isn't achieving your financial goals only you can change the offer. Obviously, the offer is pretty darned good because this site has exploded in popularity.
4. It doesn't matter what the ads are for, that's totally your decision. They could be for Viagra and we really don't have a voice in that decision. The only choice we really have is to re-evaluate our buying decision. If the content remains at its current high quality it probably doesn't matter. See #3 again.
5. The fear of diminishing quality is a valid concern and should not be dismissed so quickly. We have all seen businesses over-reach to where the quality has suffered immensely. You guys have generated enormous customer loyalty. You may not even realize how much. All businesses live and die by their customer loyalty. It should never be taken for granted when valid concerns are raised.
6. You don't ever need to justify earning a profit, at least in this country. We get it! Make all the profit you can and plow some of it back into making your business even better! Pay yourselves hansomely for all your hard work! Good on ya Mate for doing so!! :laugh:
7. With probably 20,000 non-paying forum members you are wise to pull them into the revenue stream somehow. Just keep in mind that we are not all equal. TARGET members made a decision to pay their hard earned cash, whether it is substantial or not, into this program. They deserve more consideration when it comes to advertising than non-members do.
8. Finally, don't be so sensitive!! I read every post on this thread several times and there is nothing that attacks you or the program in a negative way! These people are just presenting their views and concerns. People don't like change. You have read over and over, through a constant stream of praise, how happy the overwhelming majority of us with this program. We KNOW you guys work your butts off to provide this product. If you didn't, it wouldn't be this good. And we are very grateful. To achieve this level of excellence requires hard work. And we hope that it pays off for all of you financially to the same degree we become better musicians!!
Bottom line, these ads shouldn't be a deal breaker in whatever form they take. We don't like them but we accept them as inevitable. It's really just that simple!
Please keep up the outstanding work and thanks for listening to us!
Cheers! :cheer:
I think you missed TGMatt point #12dennisg wrote:
I think "Another 2 cents" is an interesting choice of words -- because that's what TG will earn if no one except non-members sees these ads. TG's ability to charge money for ad space is based on the number of impressions those ads will get. If no one sees the ads but non-members, the number of impressions drops considerably, and with it the amount TG can charge advertisers.
12-The majority of the users here are not Target members..and so yes whomever mentioned that point, you are dead on, they become part of the supporting revenue to develop more content, more features etc etc ...
I am tired of being assaulted by adds, pop-ups, etc. If I want or need something I know how to use Google search. I agree with fjvdb this site can be created with separate areas, no ads for for paying members and with ads for non paying members.
I think I now see the reason for the "No Competing Websites". In my opinion Neil is the best guitar teacher out there on the web, and should not be afraid of any perceived competition, he's much more personable, and he's way better at being able to communicate ideas, concepts and theories clearly. Therefore I don't believe there will be any breakdown on his end because of the advertising revenues, but the site itself may suffer. As for the site, (I'll probably get flak for this) I think it needs to be spruced up a bit, both technically and graphically. As stated above the ability to separate ad content between paying an non paying should be considered.
I'd like to say again that in my opinion, this site has the best instructional content available on the web, but, it's not nice to double dip.
Max
So...
A lot of people think they know me , know what it is my goals and outcomes are, and presume way too much..so...in the interests of my sanity,
Im just going to quietly agree with some folk, and totally NOT agree with others comments...and carry on doing what we have done from the beginning, which if you give us a chance to show will not be any where near as draconian as you think..as always..extremes and over reaching summaries and hypothesis and perspectives will always be at the beginning of something that is widely accepted later on...
For now..if anyone has any products they would like to see promoted...that is not conflicted with what we are doing here, speak up...
Cheers
A lot of people think they know me , know what it is my goals and outcomes are, and presume way too much..so...in the interests of my sanity,
Im just going to quietly agree with some folk, and totally NOT agree with others comments...and carry on doing what we have done from the beginning, which if you give us a chance to show will not be any where near as draconian as you think..as always..extremes and over reaching summaries and hypothesis and perspectives will always be at the beginning of something that is widely accepted later on...
For now..if anyone has any products they would like to see promoted...that is not conflicted with what we are doing here, speak up...
Cheers