This suggestion is based on two facts:
1. Neil can't be everywhere.
2. There are some really good guitar players on this forum.
In my mind, the goal of TG should be to attract new clients. Not the only goal, mind you, but if there is no new blood attrition will pare down the membership.
So I propose the "Wing Program". This program would have its own heading, just like busking. Here is how I see it working.
A new member says, "Hey, I'd like to learn IF YOU COULD READ MY MIND." An older, more experienced member would say, "Hey, I'm pretty good on that song. Maybe I can help." The experienced player would take the student "under his/her wing" and act as a teacher. The teacher would watch the videos and give suggestions and assignments.
This would make assistant teachers of those willing to spend a little time helping a fellow TG-er along.
What would this say to the prospective member? There are people who are willing to spend some personal time with me and help me along. I see that as an incentive to join the Target Program.
When the student has reached a level the teacher feels he/she should, Neil can come in and give the critical analysis of his/her playing.
I know we have something like this now in that people help each other, but I feel the idea has merit.
I hope I'm not overstepping here, but the heading asked for suggestions
TwoCatSam
A suggestion for the TG administrators.......
Hi Gang,
Interesting suggestion but one of the things I became aware of over many years is competence at performing, or adequacy as an entertainer, and the ability to pass that on to aspiring musicians at many levels are an apples and oranges problem, maybe even an apples and elephants problem.
Someday I might have to elaborate on a conversation I had with Leo Kottke about helping out my guitar students. I had gone to him hoping to get his assistance and guidance with tips for students. His performance that night, and discussions after the show led me to the conclusion that I could not let him talk to my students without major disappointment on their part, and incredible misdirection in the pursuit of advancing their musicianship.
This was a bit of a light bulb moment to me that teaching is a very dangerous undertaking. Part of this also led me to see my abilities in a different light. The 'Big Picture' is a big deal in my life and philosophies in many more areas than music and teaching. I have not yet found anyone that I could entrust and endorse to pass on the appropriate information and guidance to students. This of course does not mean they are not out there, it just means that I have not had the opportunity to properly evaluate all prospective messengers.
As many of you know, I do monitor these boards daily and when a question or problem comes up, I give our older members a chance to reply before I jump in, which I will only do if there is still confusion or misinformation relayed. i certainly appreciate the input from the folks who have hopped on the bus and are willing to take their time to pull others on board.
To summarize, there are thousands of great guitar players out there who I do not feel are qualified to address students. I might include folks like James Taylor, Sting, Eric Clapton, Nancy Wilson, Paul McCartney, Carlos Santana, Lindsay Buckingham, and of course Leo Kottke. There are many I feel a bit different about. These would include Pat Metheny, Keola Beamer, John Renbourn, and a handful of others.
Someday I may elaborate on the apples and elephants philosophy...
Neil
Interesting suggestion but one of the things I became aware of over many years is competence at performing, or adequacy as an entertainer, and the ability to pass that on to aspiring musicians at many levels are an apples and oranges problem, maybe even an apples and elephants problem.
Someday I might have to elaborate on a conversation I had with Leo Kottke about helping out my guitar students. I had gone to him hoping to get his assistance and guidance with tips for students. His performance that night, and discussions after the show led me to the conclusion that I could not let him talk to my students without major disappointment on their part, and incredible misdirection in the pursuit of advancing their musicianship.
This was a bit of a light bulb moment to me that teaching is a very dangerous undertaking. Part of this also led me to see my abilities in a different light. The 'Big Picture' is a big deal in my life and philosophies in many more areas than music and teaching. I have not yet found anyone that I could entrust and endorse to pass on the appropriate information and guidance to students. This of course does not mean they are not out there, it just means that I have not had the opportunity to properly evaluate all prospective messengers.
As many of you know, I do monitor these boards daily and when a question or problem comes up, I give our older members a chance to reply before I jump in, which I will only do if there is still confusion or misinformation relayed. i certainly appreciate the input from the folks who have hopped on the bus and are willing to take their time to pull others on board.
To summarize, there are thousands of great guitar players out there who I do not feel are qualified to address students. I might include folks like James Taylor, Sting, Eric Clapton, Nancy Wilson, Paul McCartney, Carlos Santana, Lindsay Buckingham, and of course Leo Kottke. There are many I feel a bit different about. These would include Pat Metheny, Keola Beamer, John Renbourn, and a handful of others.
Someday I may elaborate on the apples and elephants philosophy...
Neil
Neil, first of all, I see that your still awake. Well its Saturday night, so I guess you can stay up a little later. I just got back from a trip to a village called Shungnak, where there is SNOW on the ground.
Anyway, I get your opinion completely. My wife is a gifted as anyone I know on the computer.,(she's an accountant) and has used a computer as her main tool for many years. A long time before I ever even knew how to start one. When I decided that I wanted to learn how to navigate around and use a computer effectively, I of course asked her to teach me. The first lesson was the last, and it only lasted about 5 minutes. Even though she knew tons about what I wanted to learn, I found that as a teacher, she sucked.
.
So, I'll listen to opinions from others, I may even try to mimick others, but your on the hook as my instructor. Sorry dude, you built it, and I came.
Scott
Anyway, I get your opinion completely. My wife is a gifted as anyone I know on the computer.,(she's an accountant) and has used a computer as her main tool for many years. A long time before I ever even knew how to start one. When I decided that I wanted to learn how to navigate around and use a computer effectively, I of course asked her to teach me. The first lesson was the last, and it only lasted about 5 minutes. Even though she knew tons about what I wanted to learn, I found that as a teacher, she sucked.
. So, I'll listen to opinions from others, I may even try to mimick others, but your on the hook as my instructor. Sorry dude, you built it, and I came.
Scott
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neverfoundthetime
- Posts: 48
- Joined: Sat Aug 01, 2009 2:14 pm
- Status: Offline
Yummy, a discussion with meat on the bone... my favourite!
I thought it was an innovative suggestion Sam, a sort of Buddy Coaching (being a wingman for a fledgling) which we use in sport at times. Folks do that here through PMs already and I certainly would help anyone out with a song I knew well and felt competent enough to give some tips on. At the same time I'm very aware that I don't know nearly enough and am already very reluctant to make any technical comment on the forum. Although I can sing, I know almost nothing about that either. I'm finding Jim Bruno's stuff over at Totally Vocals very helpful. There is nothing quite as satisfying as being coached by a master. That is what we have here with Neil and I'll not tire of pointing out that there is enormous depth to what Neil does which folks may or may not appreciate at first glance. After a couple of years of exposure to Neil, you get a better sense of the depth of knowledge and wisdom but still most of the mastery involved will not be too visible. You'd have to be deep into teaching, mentoring and coaching to really get a grasp of it. But I'm sure everyone here senses it.
I have had the good luck and great honour to have been taught and mentored by some fantastic coaches and inspirational figures and to have been coaching over 30 years by now. It is hard for me to settle for anything but the very best. I know I have that here.
Something else I learned early on about coaching: Every coach, even the greatest (while helping enormously) will also limit his pupil to some extent. The job of the good coach is to be aware of that and limit the pupil as little as possible. I can imagine that Neil has that very much in mind on this. And I have also made the experience that great performers don't necessarily make great coaches. Great coaches make great coaches... and if they are great performers too... bingo! Welcome to Totally Guitars!
I thought it was an innovative suggestion Sam, a sort of Buddy Coaching (being a wingman for a fledgling) which we use in sport at times. Folks do that here through PMs already and I certainly would help anyone out with a song I knew well and felt competent enough to give some tips on. At the same time I'm very aware that I don't know nearly enough and am already very reluctant to make any technical comment on the forum. Although I can sing, I know almost nothing about that either. I'm finding Jim Bruno's stuff over at Totally Vocals very helpful. There is nothing quite as satisfying as being coached by a master. That is what we have here with Neil and I'll not tire of pointing out that there is enormous depth to what Neil does which folks may or may not appreciate at first glance. After a couple of years of exposure to Neil, you get a better sense of the depth of knowledge and wisdom but still most of the mastery involved will not be too visible. You'd have to be deep into teaching, mentoring and coaching to really get a grasp of it. But I'm sure everyone here senses it.
I have had the good luck and great honour to have been taught and mentored by some fantastic coaches and inspirational figures and to have been coaching over 30 years by now. It is hard for me to settle for anything but the very best. I know I have that here.
Something else I learned early on about coaching: Every coach, even the greatest (while helping enormously) will also limit his pupil to some extent. The job of the good coach is to be aware of that and limit the pupil as little as possible. I can imagine that Neil has that very much in mind on this. And I have also made the experience that great performers don't necessarily make great coaches. Great coaches make great coaches... and if they are great performers too... bingo! Welcome to Totally Guitars!
TGNeil wrote:
Neil, whatever criteria you use for selecting 'guest teachers', DON'T CHANGE! Hector and Muriel have been excellent.
Bill
...... There are many I feel a bit different about. These would include Pat Metheny, Keola Beamer, John Renbourn, and a handful of others.
Neil
Neil, whatever criteria you use for selecting 'guest teachers', DON'T CHANGE! Hector and Muriel have been excellent.
Bill
I have a friend that is a very good guitarplayer and when i ask him to teach me he sucked,, i think he is just looking for the same levels and don't has the patiens to teach,,thats why i like so much the fly's on the walls,,first i thought man when i was spending my money and get a lesson that way i stopped,,but now i know there is so muuuuuuuuuch in it i would spend double(just a saying),,, it is all so thought over the years,,it is super,,of course we can help each other out a bit but i think it is a bit,,,i saw many you tube lessons and never got it and when Neil tells i got it some times it is a bit confused for an example when he thought a lesson and we must strum eight notes and i got a music sheet that tells it are sixteens and that could be right but the eight notes goes ease'r,,,well i am rambling i geuss.... it feels allright here and love the way it goes....
TGNeil wrote:
Some great players, with natural ability, won't understand why someone can't do something that they themselves find easy.
Tom N.
I think I understand what you mean here Neil. Someone can be a great player and a lousy teacher. Not everyone has the ability to put themselves in someone elses situation (inside their head) and understand how to press the right buttons to get the right answers or response from the student.Hi Gang,
one of the things I became aware of over many years is competence at performing, or adequacy as an entertainer, and the ability to pass that on to aspiring musicians at many levels are an apples and oranges problem, maybe even an apples and elephants problem.
Neil
Some great players, with natural ability, won't understand why someone can't do something that they themselves find easy.
Tom N.
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millponddave
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Fri Nov 13, 2009 5:46 pm
- Status: Offline
I have to say that I am in complete agreement with Neil on this subject. While I have learned much from the interaction with other members of TG, and enjoy that interaction very much, the reason that I joined in first place is Neil's experience and dedication over a lifetime to teaching. A great teacher has the ability to not only convey information, but to do so in a way that makes it understandable to many different students with many different learning styles. For instance, I struggled for a very long time trying to figure out how to tell what notes are in any given scale. I read books, looked at the circle of fifths, asked questions and just couldn't quite grasp the concept. Then. one day I was listening to one of Neil's theory lessons and the light bulb just went on. All of a sudden it became so clear. How I was unable to grasp that concept for so long I don't know, but Neil managed to get it through to me in a matter of a few minutes. (and that was over the internet) I can only imagine how much a student of his can learn in person. Anyway that's my two cents worth.
Dave
Dave
Well I think teaching is a gift...and surely not every great player is able to be good at it.
I signed up a year ago for one reason only (sure I liked the songs!
) and that was Neil's teaching. It appealed to me immediately and I was absolutely impressed watching him teach and I still am, with évery new lesson that is added to Target. His gift just fascinates me áll the time. Am I gushing??! :dry: Well I mean every word of it.....I don't know any other online teacher who teaches like him...
So yeah, your suggestion sounds great! And it's true, students pm each other with questions and/or advice/suggestions and help each other out when they can. Uh...some shoot little videos. B) and post them on the forum or share them behind the scenes.
So the idea sounds great, but indeed, not so easy to carry out, because of the reasons already mentioned by Neil himself.
Alright, that's my two cents.
Ness
I signed up a year ago for one reason only (sure I liked the songs!
) and that was Neil's teaching. It appealed to me immediately and I was absolutely impressed watching him teach and I still am, with évery new lesson that is added to Target. His gift just fascinates me áll the time. Am I gushing??! :dry: Well I mean every word of it.....I don't know any other online teacher who teaches like him...So yeah, your suggestion sounds great!
And it's true, students pm each other with questions and/or advice/suggestions and help each other out when they can. Uh...some shoot little videos. B) and post them on the forum or share them behind the scenes.So the idea sounds great, but indeed, not so easy to carry out, because of the reasons already mentioned by Neil himself.
Alright, that's my two cents.
Ness
Neil,
Wow! what you had to say on this topic was really interesting! I do think I understand what you're saying...
A great player doesn't necessarily equal great performer. Great performer doesn't equal great teacher. Isn't that the truth.
They are completely different disciplines. Being able to do something/find something that works technically and being able to
articulate that to others REALLY are completely different things. And, let's face it... we're talking about completely different
personality traits as well...
Suddenly I am reminded of a pretentious painting instructor from my past...who painted beautifully and sold paintings for
big bucks but couldn't/wouldn't teach to save her life...
Frankly, I am no Picasso, myself, but I run into this in teaching 2-D & 3-D Art with great regularity. As a teacher I,
occasionally find myself taking certain student fundamental knowledge-base type things for granted. (I'm thinking: "here just
do this, it works trust me..." ) But then of course, I realize I have just glossed over something I should have spent more time
on. AND, what I should of asked was: " Why does this work?" It is so tempting to blaze ahead and push, push, push...but
without that solid foundation, doing so generally spells trouble & frustration. It really is a juggling act. challenging someone
but at the same time not cramming so much information that the student becomes utterly overwhelmed. Plus, you want to still
keep it fun for the student. I have always thought you do an excellent job of finding that balance! In all sincerity I learn a a lot
about "teaching" from you. ( And guitar as well, but that goes without saying...)
I find your list quite interesting & illuminating!! Leo-Oh yeah I can see that! Not too long ago I was reading some old guitar
magazine column by Leo entitled: "Finding the Elbow chords" Uh? Always seems like the guy is playing familiar garden variety
fingerings but at such ludicrously insane speeds. (Definitely a confidence killer!...at least for me.) James Taylor-yeah, even I
know enough to know his fingerings are completely unorthodox. I am definitely not surprised by Buckingham since I
have read he refers to himself as a primitive guitarist. Honestly, I am only surprised by one name; Sting. (Simply because I
thought I read somewhere, he was once a music teacher. But then again, there are some crummy music teachers in school
systems...I suppose. And, that WAS many years ago.)
All and all, I found this very interesting Neil! thank you!!
Cori
Wow! what you had to say on this topic was really interesting! I do think I understand what you're saying...
A great player doesn't necessarily equal great performer. Great performer doesn't equal great teacher. Isn't that the truth.
They are completely different disciplines. Being able to do something/find something that works technically and being able to
articulate that to others REALLY are completely different things. And, let's face it... we're talking about completely different
personality traits as well...
Suddenly I am reminded of a pretentious painting instructor from my past...who painted beautifully and sold paintings for
big bucks but couldn't/wouldn't teach to save her life...
Frankly, I am no Picasso, myself, but I run into this in teaching 2-D & 3-D Art with great regularity. As a teacher I,
occasionally find myself taking certain student fundamental knowledge-base type things for granted. (I'm thinking: "here just
do this, it works trust me..." ) But then of course, I realize I have just glossed over something I should have spent more time
on. AND, what I should of asked was: " Why does this work?" It is so tempting to blaze ahead and push, push, push...but
without that solid foundation, doing so generally spells trouble & frustration. It really is a juggling act. challenging someone
but at the same time not cramming so much information that the student becomes utterly overwhelmed. Plus, you want to still
keep it fun for the student. I have always thought you do an excellent job of finding that balance! In all sincerity I learn a a lot
about "teaching" from you. ( And guitar as well, but that goes without saying...)
I find your list quite interesting & illuminating!! Leo-Oh yeah I can see that! Not too long ago I was reading some old guitar
magazine column by Leo entitled: "Finding the Elbow chords" Uh? Always seems like the guy is playing familiar garden variety
fingerings but at such ludicrously insane speeds. (Definitely a confidence killer!...at least for me.) James Taylor-yeah, even I
know enough to know his fingerings are completely unorthodox. I am definitely not surprised by Buckingham since I
have read he refers to himself as a primitive guitarist. Honestly, I am only surprised by one name; Sting. (Simply because I
thought I read somewhere, he was once a music teacher. But then again, there are some crummy music teachers in school
systems...I suppose. And, that WAS many years ago.)
All and all, I found this very interesting Neil! thank you!!
Cori