Hey everyone, I'm new to the forum, had a few questions for Neil and he suggested I post this to get your feedback, so here goes:
I have enjoyed a number of the free lessons - found them on youtube, then navigated to this site. I have been playing guitar for the past 2-3 years, but have not been diligent about lessons (I tend to learn songs, rather than the basics). My playing ability is probably advanced beginner - I can play bar chords, but have difficulty transitioning from open to bar; my strumming technique needs work (I finally learned to palm mute recently, trying to incorporate into strumming); as an example of where I am at, songs I can tackle include Neil Young Old Man, Neil Young Needle and Damage Done, James Taylor Fire and Rain (although not at full speed). I am considering joining the Target program, but have a few questions:
1. Online lessons are attractive to me because I travel fairly frequently, and it would be difficult to take in-person lessons on a regular basis; that said, I worry that taking lessons on-line won't give me the right feedback with respect to my progress, and specifics about my playing ability - how would you respond to that?
2. From watching other lessons, I realize that my left hand grip isn't quite right (at least, not the prescribed way most on-line lessons show) - my thumb tends to come over the neck (which allows me to fret the low e string) rather than pressing on the back of the neck, more towards the center. A friend has told me that I would be better off relearning my left hand grip and start over - what do you think? I don't like the idea of re-learning (and my grip feels comfortable to me, although my palm does have a tendency to mute the high e string), but like a golf grip, don't want to get stymied by an improper grip. This is the type of specific feedback I wouldn't be able to necessarily get from online lessons, right?
3. Given where my playing ability is (see above), where do I start? Do I start right from the beginning with beginner lessons (even though I know most open chords, etc.)? Or do I jump in at a certain point in your lessons?
4. My tendency is to learn songs as a way to improve my playing - should I continue to do so, or am I better off focusing on technique and repetition exercises?
Thanks very much, in advance, for responding to my questions.
Steve
Questions about TARGET and on-line lessons in general
Hi Steve. I can answer a couple of your questions.
If you need feedback, you can post video's of your progress and Neil will give you a critique. It is called the Target Student reviews. If you really need more feedback, take an in-person lesson with an instructor on a drop in basis. But 1/2 hr with an instructor will cost about as much as a month of TG, ..... and with TG you get unlimited use of the lessons.
There is an actual video lesson regarding left hand grip. It is under Quick Tips-Left Hand Teqnique. It sounds like the grip you have will come in handy later for certain Thumb wrap F Chords (E shape Barre chords), but that comes later, better to refine your regular grip first. You don't want "baseball bat grip". If you are using an inappropriate grip, Neil will instruct you if you submit a Video for Review.
Jump in and start Learning songs. Pay attention to Neil's theory info. You will pick it up in time. You can dip into the Acoustic Genius lessons as well. That series is very informative and important, but it is more important to play fun songs and enjoy yourself. With every new song that you learn, you will pick up new skills and pick up tidbits of theory. it comes together if you are diligent and patient. Personally I am methodical about the songs that I pick, If I know there is a really challenging one for me that I want to learn, but it is way outside my ability. Then I build up by learning songs that have similar skills but might be a touch easier. In time the really tough challenging songs, when you come back to them 6 months or so later, will seem more within your ability range. All the skills that you pick up in different songs, transfer over to other songs.
Mix it up learning songs, then sometimes work on specific skills (tricky chord changes, or various scales) and spend some time with theory stuff. Keep in mind, eventually you will have to learn the theory. Understanding the musical alphabet and Major scales is essential in understanding everything else.
I hope this helps you, have fun.
When you learn a song that you can't quite get, then post it for us too see and hopefully Neil will have time to review it for you. Or when you learn a challenge song that you are particularly proud of, then you can post it to show and inspire the rest of us.
Beaker.
If you need feedback, you can post video's of your progress and Neil will give you a critique. It is called the Target Student reviews. If you really need more feedback, take an in-person lesson with an instructor on a drop in basis. But 1/2 hr with an instructor will cost about as much as a month of TG, ..... and with TG you get unlimited use of the lessons.
There is an actual video lesson regarding left hand grip. It is under Quick Tips-Left Hand Teqnique. It sounds like the grip you have will come in handy later for certain Thumb wrap F Chords (E shape Barre chords), but that comes later, better to refine your regular grip first. You don't want "baseball bat grip". If you are using an inappropriate grip, Neil will instruct you if you submit a Video for Review.
Jump in and start Learning songs. Pay attention to Neil's theory info. You will pick it up in time. You can dip into the Acoustic Genius lessons as well. That series is very informative and important, but it is more important to play fun songs and enjoy yourself. With every new song that you learn, you will pick up new skills and pick up tidbits of theory. it comes together if you are diligent and patient. Personally I am methodical about the songs that I pick, If I know there is a really challenging one for me that I want to learn, but it is way outside my ability. Then I build up by learning songs that have similar skills but might be a touch easier. In time the really tough challenging songs, when you come back to them 6 months or so later, will seem more within your ability range. All the skills that you pick up in different songs, transfer over to other songs.
Mix it up learning songs, then sometimes work on specific skills (tricky chord changes, or various scales) and spend some time with theory stuff. Keep in mind, eventually you will have to learn the theory. Understanding the musical alphabet and Major scales is essential in understanding everything else.
I hope this helps you, have fun.
When you learn a song that you can't quite get, then post it for us too see and hopefully Neil will have time to review it for you. Or when you learn a challenge song that you are particularly proud of, then you can post it to show and inspire the rest of us.
Beaker.
Hi Steve,
Good to have you here and I think your questions are totally appropriate. Even though signing up for the Target program is a minimal commitment (I believe you can get your first month's payment back if you're not happy with the program), it's still scary for some people. So you should ask whatever questions will ease your mind.
I'm not a person who enjoys in-person lessons for anything; I'd much rather watch lessons online, where I can easily rewind to view a technique over and over again, or go away from the material for a while, then come back to it right where I left off. So, in addition to what Beaker wrote, I'd add ...
1) Online lessons can't possibly give you real-time feedback; only in-person or skype lessons can do that. But what you CAN do is post a video of your progress and have your fellow Target students give you input. Or you can submit a song for Neil's review.
2) Neil doesn't like the baseball bat grip, and it's never been explained to me why. But I've respected his advice and learned to grip the neck his way. When I went to guitar camp awhile ago, one of my instructors (giving a lecture on the ergonomics of guitar playing) had me roll my thumb up so that my wrist was straighter, a technique that contradicts Neil's method. I find it to be more comfortable playing with the baseball bat grip, but I stuck with Neil's method.
3) Some people jump in to the lessons on music theory, while others stick to just learning songs. I tend to stick to songs and learn new techniques through the demands of each particular song. Everyone's different. But while every guitarist probably should know music theory, not all of us want to explore it. I would suggest that you at least try it out, and if you find it interesting and useful, go further.
4) See #3.
Good to have you here and I think your questions are totally appropriate. Even though signing up for the Target program is a minimal commitment (I believe you can get your first month's payment back if you're not happy with the program), it's still scary for some people. So you should ask whatever questions will ease your mind.
I'm not a person who enjoys in-person lessons for anything; I'd much rather watch lessons online, where I can easily rewind to view a technique over and over again, or go away from the material for a while, then come back to it right where I left off. So, in addition to what Beaker wrote, I'd add ...
1) Online lessons can't possibly give you real-time feedback; only in-person or skype lessons can do that. But what you CAN do is post a video of your progress and have your fellow Target students give you input. Or you can submit a song for Neil's review.
2) Neil doesn't like the baseball bat grip, and it's never been explained to me why. But I've respected his advice and learned to grip the neck his way. When I went to guitar camp awhile ago, one of my instructors (giving a lecture on the ergonomics of guitar playing) had me roll my thumb up so that my wrist was straighter, a technique that contradicts Neil's method. I find it to be more comfortable playing with the baseball bat grip, but I stuck with Neil's method.
3) Some people jump in to the lessons on music theory, while others stick to just learning songs. I tend to stick to songs and learn new techniques through the demands of each particular song. Everyone's different. But while every guitarist probably should know music theory, not all of us want to explore it. I would suggest that you at least try it out, and if you find it interesting and useful, go further.
4) See #3.
Steve- Welcome to TG! I'm glad you've joined us. Getting to talk about learning and techniques with other players is a huge benefit of this site. A bunch of great people who all share a love of music and especially the guitar.
Both Beaker and Dennis have offered good,solid advice. The way people learn anything is highly individual. And what works for one player may not be good for you.
The "Grip Question" is a good one and it contiunes to be controversial. I was a former "baseball gripper" probably because I've played a little electric guitar and it seems like electric guitarists are much more prone to roll their thumb over the top. But after considerabe experimentation I believe Neil is absolutely correct. There are many times when it's necessary to catch that low F# (or F) with your thumb. But in general, keeping your wrist lower with your thumb on the back of the neck makes fretting, especially on difficult pieces, much easier. It also makes forming barre chords much easier.
But there is nothing cast in stone. And you can make adjustments to your hand position as you go. What I've found, and I've been dinking around with the guitar for over 40 years, is if I re-learn the proper techniques frrom Neil, I get better and especially "crisper". I don't hit as many bad notes. Another example of this is Neil's right hand technique of cocking the wrist downward to allow the fingers a more perpendicular attack while finger picking. Huge advantage.
As far as songs versus theory versus technique Neil does a great job of creating lessons that teach certain techniques. For example, I never used a lot of palm muting until Neil posted Old Man by Neil Young. Now I use that technique all the time. So the song includes needed techniques. As you become a better player (not that I'm one of those!) the techniques become just a form a expression and you don't really think of them much.
But I believe the single most important thing to do with a guitar is have fun! Everything else is gravy. Where do you want to go with the guitar? Are you going to become a performing musician or just play for fun? If you intend to really get serious you must learn theory. I think it's critical for all guitarists to learn the pentatonic scales and later the major, minor and blues scales. It takes time and is a pain in the butt but you have to know them. Maybe first off, learn every note on the fretboard. If someone says G# you need to be able to find every one of them. This will lead to a better understanding of chord formation. And Neil loves to play augmented, diminished, 9th, 11th chords and so on. Drives me nuts but that's what separates the camp fire strummers from the real players.
You may not want to know that much about music or the guitar and the beauty is you don't have to know much of it at all just to have fun playing. I break my practice sessions into three parts. I spend a quarter of my time on theory and techniques. Another quarter on playing lead and chord soloing. And half my time working on playing new and old songs. My "book" of songs I feel I could play for others. But every session I end up spending much more time playing songs. If I commit to an hour I usually spend 2 just so I can play more songs. Ultimately, that's what it's all about right?
Finally, let me put my plug in for joining the TARGET program. I joined the program the first week it started and I have made more progress in the 2+ years as a member than I did the 40 years prior. It is just amazing the quality and quantity of useful material Neil and company have provided. So if your finances allow I can't encourage you enough to take the next step. It sounds like you are ready!
Good luck and Happy Playin' !! :cheer:
Both Beaker and Dennis have offered good,solid advice. The way people learn anything is highly individual. And what works for one player may not be good for you.
The "Grip Question" is a good one and it contiunes to be controversial. I was a former "baseball gripper" probably because I've played a little electric guitar and it seems like electric guitarists are much more prone to roll their thumb over the top. But after considerabe experimentation I believe Neil is absolutely correct. There are many times when it's necessary to catch that low F# (or F) with your thumb. But in general, keeping your wrist lower with your thumb on the back of the neck makes fretting, especially on difficult pieces, much easier. It also makes forming barre chords much easier.
But there is nothing cast in stone. And you can make adjustments to your hand position as you go. What I've found, and I've been dinking around with the guitar for over 40 years, is if I re-learn the proper techniques frrom Neil, I get better and especially "crisper". I don't hit as many bad notes. Another example of this is Neil's right hand technique of cocking the wrist downward to allow the fingers a more perpendicular attack while finger picking. Huge advantage.
As far as songs versus theory versus technique Neil does a great job of creating lessons that teach certain techniques. For example, I never used a lot of palm muting until Neil posted Old Man by Neil Young. Now I use that technique all the time. So the song includes needed techniques. As you become a better player (not that I'm one of those!) the techniques become just a form a expression and you don't really think of them much.
But I believe the single most important thing to do with a guitar is have fun! Everything else is gravy. Where do you want to go with the guitar? Are you going to become a performing musician or just play for fun? If you intend to really get serious you must learn theory. I think it's critical for all guitarists to learn the pentatonic scales and later the major, minor and blues scales. It takes time and is a pain in the butt but you have to know them. Maybe first off, learn every note on the fretboard. If someone says G# you need to be able to find every one of them. This will lead to a better understanding of chord formation. And Neil loves to play augmented, diminished, 9th, 11th chords and so on. Drives me nuts but that's what separates the camp fire strummers from the real players.
You may not want to know that much about music or the guitar and the beauty is you don't have to know much of it at all just to have fun playing. I break my practice sessions into three parts. I spend a quarter of my time on theory and techniques. Another quarter on playing lead and chord soloing. And half my time working on playing new and old songs. My "book" of songs I feel I could play for others. But every session I end up spending much more time playing songs. If I commit to an hour I usually spend 2 just so I can play more songs. Ultimately, that's what it's all about right?
Finally, let me put my plug in for joining the TARGET program. I joined the program the first week it started and I have made more progress in the 2+ years as a member than I did the 40 years prior. It is just amazing the quality and quantity of useful material Neil and company have provided. So if your finances allow I can't encourage you enough to take the next step. It sounds like you are ready!
Good luck and Happy Playin' !! :cheer:
-
neverfoundthetime
- Posts: 48
- Joined: Sat Aug 01, 2009 2:14 pm
- Status: Offline
Hi Steve, good questions easily answered.
Following the online lessons has so many advantages over live lessons including being able to take your time and go at your own pace an focus on whichever part you choose any time of the day for a long as you want. Add to that a year of online lessons is to be had for the cost of about 2 live lessons, it all becomes incredibly one-sided in terms of making a choice. But this you already will know. As to the feedback, you can get tons of that by posting a video either to the lesson review thread or as a busking video and ask for feedback which will helpful and reliable and you'll be making many friends along the way.
My left hand is not always as Neil's as I like to wrap the thumb around to fret the E string at times but i have incorporated Neil's LH position wherever possible as it gives better movement and clearer tone in so many positions. So it is more a question of adapting and changing... there is no need to unlearn your LH habit but you can add a better position as you see fit and as you progress, there's no dogma in Neil's teaching. I'm a professional coach of tennis & squash and have to deal with questions of technique and adaptation every day. Best advice I can give you is to use what works for you and add on improvements which make sense as you progress... anything which is more efficient and improves your playing makes sense. You are getting the best possible advice but you decide what's best for you.
You already have found your natural way of learning... I'm doing the same as you are and also think I should spend more time with theory but don't... but I will when the need and interest is strong as I have that choice available to me. Motivation is most important so whatever keeps you going or gives you a lift is good. No rules.
This is the best of all possible worlds... and its unbeatable value for money.
Following the online lessons has so many advantages over live lessons including being able to take your time and go at your own pace an focus on whichever part you choose any time of the day for a long as you want. Add to that a year of online lessons is to be had for the cost of about 2 live lessons, it all becomes incredibly one-sided in terms of making a choice. But this you already will know. As to the feedback, you can get tons of that by posting a video either to the lesson review thread or as a busking video and ask for feedback which will helpful and reliable and you'll be making many friends along the way.
My left hand is not always as Neil's as I like to wrap the thumb around to fret the E string at times but i have incorporated Neil's LH position wherever possible as it gives better movement and clearer tone in so many positions. So it is more a question of adapting and changing... there is no need to unlearn your LH habit but you can add a better position as you see fit and as you progress, there's no dogma in Neil's teaching. I'm a professional coach of tennis & squash and have to deal with questions of technique and adaptation every day. Best advice I can give you is to use what works for you and add on improvements which make sense as you progress... anything which is more efficient and improves your playing makes sense. You are getting the best possible advice but you decide what's best for you.
You already have found your natural way of learning... I'm doing the same as you are and also think I should spend more time with theory but don't... but I will when the need and interest is strong as I have that choice available to me. Motivation is most important so whatever keeps you going or gives you a lift is good. No rules.
This is the best of all possible worlds... and its unbeatable value for money.
Welcome to TG Steve, great questions, all pretty much answered already.
You do get feedback although not instant, nearly always given in a friendly manner by other members. Neil also responds when he can to student uploads, these are valuable to other members maybe having similar issues, so they need to be viewed even if not yours.
Grip, whilst Neil advocates the thumb position mid rear of the neck (guitars not yours lol) he also approves the thumb over the top style for certain songs. But I have found the thumb in Neils preferred position rear of neck has improved my play tremendously. It is really an individual preference what works for you.
And as its been said best value for money on the Net or anywhere.
And you can make great friends here in the TG community.
Hopefully be seeing more of you around.
regards
Chas
You do get feedback although not instant, nearly always given in a friendly manner by other members. Neil also responds when he can to student uploads, these are valuable to other members maybe having similar issues, so they need to be viewed even if not yours.
Grip, whilst Neil advocates the thumb position mid rear of the neck (guitars not yours lol) he also approves the thumb over the top style for certain songs. But I have found the thumb in Neils preferred position rear of neck has improved my play tremendously. It is really an individual preference what works for you.
And as its been said best value for money on the Net or anywhere.
And you can make great friends here in the TG community.
Hopefully be seeing more of you around.
regards
Chas
There are here hundreds of songs and what I know from Neil is that when a song as something interesting in it in the way of learning or improving your skills he is very willing to put it up..what I mean is when you ever learned ''the house of the rising sun'' in 6/8 time fingerpickin you can play every song that has the same technic in it ,,but he has also put up ''Hallelujah''from Leonard Cohen also in 6/8 time and fingerpickin but the song has something in it that can improve your skills in the way how to pick in that 6/8 time two chords in a measer or how to do a bass walk...every lesson here is based on improving one or an other skill..
Music theory: I find you have atleast to know some basics,,how scales work,,how chords are build up and how they work in a scale,,well just a bit and when you like it you go furter on it,, I must confess that theory is easy'r to understand on a piano or keyboard..and take in bits..
W.
Music theory: I find you have atleast to know some basics,,how scales work,,how chords are build up and how they work in a scale,,well just a bit and when you like it you go furter on it,, I must confess that theory is easy'r to understand on a piano or keyboard..and take in bits..
W.
Thanks, everyone, for the quick and thorough replies. All of my questions were answered, and I appreciate the enthusiasm on this forum. I think I'm going to give the TARGET program a try.
However, one final question to the group - There are several on-line guitar instructors that are fairly popular (the two I see the most on youtube are Marty Schwartz and Justin Sandercoe). Part of why I have gravitated to Neil's lessons is (to be honest) that I grew up in the 60's/70's and love music from that time period - and Neil seems to have a love for music from this time period as well. That said, I'm curious to hear if any of you have tried some of the others, and find out why you ended up here.
However, one final question to the group - There are several on-line guitar instructors that are fairly popular (the two I see the most on youtube are Marty Schwartz and Justin Sandercoe). Part of why I have gravitated to Neil's lessons is (to be honest) that I grew up in the 60's/70's and love music from that time period - and Neil seems to have a love for music from this time period as well. That said, I'm curious to hear if any of you have tried some of the others, and find out why you ended up here.
I've tried Justin's site, and I think he does a pretty good job. But I think Neil goes into far more detail about a song, plus I'm pretty sure TG offers far more song lessons than Justin does, and I'm also pretty sure Justin doesn't offer tabs.
Steve,
I'm like you, I like the music from the 60s & 70s. TG is stacked on that era. I think that Neil has great taste and he has a ton of enthusiasm for the music that he teaches and for the lessons that he posts. For me, that is important. I have learned a couple of songs from Justin Guitar and he is OK. I say only OK because, while you can learn a couple of cool songs from him, he does not have the full breadth of knowledge that Neil has. For me, the bottom line is this. Justin can be stumped by music questions. I have seen in him videos where he just says.... "I don't Know" what this chord is, or why that is.... etc. Neil always has an answer and Neil always has a logical, well thought out reason for using certain finger positions, or chord voicing"s, that kind of thing.
To clarify... Justin is not a bad teacher. He is good. He is just not as good as Neil. Neil could be Justin's teacher, not the other way around.
Also, I have a tip. This is what has worked for me..... I always try to flood myself with a ton of guitar resources. I use TG a lot. I use a lot of You Tube lessons (for certain song types, & I am selective, I only pick ones that are good), I use DVD lessons, I use random tabs that I find on the internet (again, I am selective). I learn a lot from watching vids of artists playing up close. I always have enough Vid's and music and lessons on hand so that I always have inspiration.
I guarantee that there are many players on TG that have greatly improved their playing. All of us who have been learning from Neil for a while have seen each other really make improvements in leaps and bounds. There is no magic or secret shortcut though. You still need to put in the time and play. But, if you are sufficiently inspired you will. Good luck.
Beaker.
I'm like you, I like the music from the 60s & 70s. TG is stacked on that era. I think that Neil has great taste and he has a ton of enthusiasm for the music that he teaches and for the lessons that he posts. For me, that is important. I have learned a couple of songs from Justin Guitar and he is OK. I say only OK because, while you can learn a couple of cool songs from him, he does not have the full breadth of knowledge that Neil has. For me, the bottom line is this. Justin can be stumped by music questions. I have seen in him videos where he just says.... "I don't Know" what this chord is, or why that is.... etc. Neil always has an answer and Neil always has a logical, well thought out reason for using certain finger positions, or chord voicing"s, that kind of thing.
To clarify... Justin is not a bad teacher. He is good. He is just not as good as Neil. Neil could be Justin's teacher, not the other way around.
Also, I have a tip. This is what has worked for me..... I always try to flood myself with a ton of guitar resources. I use TG a lot. I use a lot of You Tube lessons (for certain song types, & I am selective, I only pick ones that are good), I use DVD lessons, I use random tabs that I find on the internet (again, I am selective). I learn a lot from watching vids of artists playing up close. I always have enough Vid's and music and lessons on hand so that I always have inspiration.
I guarantee that there are many players on TG that have greatly improved their playing. All of us who have been learning from Neil for a while have seen each other really make improvements in leaps and bounds. There is no magic or secret shortcut though. You still need to put in the time and play. But, if you are sufficiently inspired you will. Good luck.
Beaker.