Recommend a Lesson - What's the point

Feel free to get outside the box here.
unclewalt
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Wed May 08, 2013 11:01 pm

familyman4 wrote:
Please, please, please, No-one is disputing the fact that this site is fantastic. Please allow folks, fellow members, to voice their own concerns without makng a speed bump out if them.

Bart
I've never understood this idea that people should be able to say whatever they want without being challenged, as if it were some sort of natural right. I guess it comes out of the "self-esteem" movement, or whatever, but it makes no sense. Nobody's insulting anyone personally, and if you don't want to be responded to except with agreement, then what's the point of communicating at all? Just to get people to pat you on the back and say "good show?" What good is "voicing a concern" in a public forum, only to have it just lie there unresponded-to? If the complaint isn't meant to be answered by other members, make it privately - don't start a message board topic about it. If it's a "speed bump," it was put there by the original post, not the responses.

And I think sometimes people indeed *are* disputing that the site is fantastic. In this case, there was a threat to quit, for example. I have no problem with people saying the site is less than fantastic (some relatively minor aspects of the site are that way, to me), but again, if I disagree (or agree) with this or that complaint, I reserve the right to say so, since it's a public discussion forum and everything.


unclewalt
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Wed May 08, 2013 11:07 pm

kelemenj wrote:
I can see both sides of this. On one hand, it is frustrating to feel that the site is not responsive to a request. On the other hand, it is my perception that the lessons are chosen because they offer a way to expand guitar playing skills in general. It may be expanding chord vocabulary, fingerpicking skills, rhythm, alternative tunings, etc. Or perhaps to introduce the subscriber to artists they may have overlooked. There are a myriad of other resources that can teach just about any song you can think of. But to reiterate, I believe Neil is using his lessons to teach translatable skills that will eventually help the user to become more knowledgeable and well rounded as a guitarist and as a musician.
John
Agreed. What it comes down to for me is that if the measure for satisfaction is strict adherence to the "recommend" list, then satisfaction will never be achieved. It would be impossible to do all the songs on the list, or even just the most popular ones. Neil has done a ton of lessons from the list, but lots of the songs there just wouldn't make for good lessons. The other thing is that if Neil mindlessly followed the list, the site would be a lot less good. I don't much care one way or the other about the list, which I mostly ignore, and some of the best or most helpful lessons on the site were never on the list at all.


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TGNeil
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Wed May 08, 2013 11:48 pm

Hi Gang,

I saw this post and figured I would try to offer a bit of my perspective on the inner workings and philosophy at TG. The first comment about 'What's the point' is curious because I look at the list almost every day, mostly to see recent requests but also to peruse songs that have been there for a long time with many votes to see which might be right for where I wanted to go at a particular time. Sometimes I pull one with many votes, sometimes I grab with only 1 or 2 (Scotch & Soda, Clifton In The Rain), and occasionally I do a song not even on the list like Midnight At The Oasis. By the way, this was a song I didn't think much of for almost 40 years until I recently paid attention to the guitar part and realized that it was a necessary step for any aspiring guitar student. I find the wording regarding hating a song curious as well, although I should say there are some lessons at TG on songs I think are suspect on many levels but many members have responded positively to them.

As far as 'What his customers are asking for', the last time I looked at the top 100 Recommended Lessons there were 60 that have become lessons. We also know there are glitches in how the list is working right now and we are working on it. That does not change how I see and consider what's there. Looking back at the last 10 lessons, 5 were from the list and 5 not. The ones not on the list were mostly Dawes and Leonard Cohen, which we didn't seem to get many complaints about, as a matter of fact it was quite the opposite. Going further back the percentage is even higher. Also, as Chas pointed out, there are some requests that will not make good lessons at TG (Moonlight Sonata, Bolero)

I have also been very intent on getting the Guide To Reading Music constructed. I would guess that that is something else some people will not be interested in. What a shame for those who fall into that category as it is easier than you think and an important part of developing as a real musician. There are many times I take a student into a direction they did not think was necessary or useful and they walked out with a different, enlightened attitude.

Moving on to more curious comments, I am sorry that people are 'Feeling your pain', as that is pretty far from our overall plan. I don't understand the feeling that the regulars are on the back burner for preference being given to folks planning on attending the camp. For a month or two I was very concentrated on setting up the camp, which slowed production of lessons a bit, but I feel like there was still plenty of new stuff coming out. I'm sure old-timers remember our original promise to release 4-6 new song lessons every month. This was after we launched Target with a whopping 50 songs. It is of course now somewhere around 500 and I don't believe we ever had a month below 10. Apparently by over delivering we have created a sense of entitlement.

I am really interested in expanding everyone's musical abilities and that might include reading, trying some classical or jazz tunes, learning some theory, tackling new techniques, or dozens of other things, and then the student can probably learn the song that I have not gotten to on their own. Maybe not a popular approach but it is mine.

We have also been changing a few things lately. You may have noticed less reviews and less Fly vids. There may be complaints about those but this is in the interest of getting back up to 3+ new lessons a week and being more flexible with releases (doing stuff like MarkM's Open G Noodle). As part of this we have been actively looking for additional teachers to supplement the material. I have interviewed and corresponded with quite a few teachers and nobody comes close to being able to deliver the quality we need yet.

This should probably go without saying but there are a few lessons in the top 20 that are in various stages of development and now they'll have to wait so as not to appear as a knee-jerk reaction. Maybe I'll have to do Homburg instead.

Neil


unclewalt
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Wed May 08, 2013 11:58 pm

>now they'll have to wait so as not to appear as a knee-jerk reaction

Oh, I hope you don't do that. I think the best way to respond to this (besides your explanation here) is to just keep doing what you think is best. Stay the course!

Another thing I thought of: Strict adherence to the recommend list would be a lot like when companies (like media companies) conduct focus groups, and then proceed to produce nothing but crap. I think one of the best things about this site is that it's so very human - and the work looks like it was done for humans by humans, using their sometimes-flawed human judgment. Things are *always* better that way.


thereshopeyet
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Thu May 09, 2013 10:26 am

The recommend a lesson is a good feature.
It's a great resource for potential lessons for sure.
I've voted for a good number of songs there too.
Maybe Neil could consider selecting a lesson from it once a month rather than much less frequently, to keep those who feel
it's important to them.

Myself, I think, no matter the lesson upload, Neil always has something to teach in every lesson.

I also like the unpredictability of what's coming next too.

Dermot

:)


dekotaj
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Thu May 09, 2013 11:53 am

mshrad wrote:
Taking a look at the "reccommend a lesson" page and began wondering what the point is? There are songs there that have a lot of votes but then we get a lesson on "Midnight at the Oasis" ? Honesly I think the song choices that Neal has been making have gone steadily down hill. Seem like he is doing what he likes and not what his customers are asking for. I'm actually a charter member and if it was not for the some of the older lessons - I probably would drop my membership. Or maybe I'm just in a bad mood today (and I really hate that MATO song!)
Well sir welcome to the form.I agree with you completely!

I also agree that,if the number of song to chose from is what makes a great site.Then yes this is a great one.
Some folks said here that some of the top songs will not make great lessons???I guess I wonder what songs they are talking about???
The two James Taylor songs on the top of the list.Or is it the Dan Fogelberg song Leader of the band.Or maybe it Operator by Jim Croce?
I find it hard to believe that these songs have no lesson value at all.Or is it some other songs we are talking about???

(Now they'll have to wait so as not to appear as a knee-jerk reaction.)Really!!! Because I remember Nass calling for more Female songs.And the rest of us jumping on the band wagon.And presto,We got are female songs.
I've seen people come to this site and say ( I seen you do a song on you tube and saying you would get to a lesson on it)And like always, it's we are going to get to them.And after about three years of that I wonder where these lesson are???Look there are a number of great songs to choose from on this site.Neil has every right to choose the songs that he thinks will make good lessons.And yes he is human.And like most of us,he seem to do song that I can only assume that were a great influence on him when he was starting out and Loves these songs.Hell don't we all what to learn songs that we love! Seem like that's all any of us want.And what this thread start out saying??

Unclewalt,You crack me up buddy :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Your damn right you have all the right to comment on these thread as you see fit.But you kind of lost me with the thought that (Those of you who know me know that I am the furthest thing from an ass-kisser there could be - and there are some fairly shameless ass-kissers on this site. I say these things because I truly believe them.)I"m sure you well set me straight if I misunderstood you.But let me quote you again.( Nobody's insulting anyone personally,)You are right there, you did not say the folks you think are shameless ass-kisser by name.Once again set me straight is I've misunderstood what you are saying here.The only way to tell if someone is what you claim, is to go by what they say.Other words you wouldn't know if folks are Kissing ass or not.And the only place to see how folks feel is on the forum part of this site.Where people say how they feel about all sorts of things.And out of all the folks that must be target members,Only about a couple of dozen that I've seen over the three years I've been here use the forum for that.So if you could tell me what you think a ass kisser is.Is it some one who agrees with Neil on the issue of this being the great site that it is.And if so,and you seem to agree with Neil on this issue.If that's the case then you might as well join all us ass kisser,(you say your not, but other people are)!!

Look folks,I quit paying for this site because I got tried of all the promise about songs we were going to get to some day.And YES Neil will get to them some day I'm sure.I just was not going to pay for lesson I did not want to learn.NOT THAT THERE NOT GOOD LESSON!!!! just not the ones I would like to learn.And I don't buy off on a song some one LOVES not to make a good lesson.So I use this site to stay in touch with the GREAT ass kisser I've come to call FRIENDS.And WHEN Neil get to some song I think will make a good lesson for me I can buy it or join back up.

So let me end this with BRAVO mhsard!!! Great point.Hope you find what your looking for. Because no matter what all the ass kisser here say there are a lot of other avenues to find the song you are hoping to learn.
GOOD LUCK SIR
Kevin


unclewalt
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Thu May 09, 2013 1:45 pm

Um. Yikes.


TGNesh
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Fri May 10, 2013 11:04 am

Well - thanks to all who at least could see my side of it - good, bad, or indifferent. Kind of thought I might get thrashed a bit for my comment. Heck - the song I suggested likely will not ever make the top 50 - so I understand if it is never addressed or if it is not appropriate - but you don't know till you ask. Anyhow - there are songs with a lot of votes that should be considered. Maybe a 100 vote threshold would require some sort of respons that a lesson is planned, or song not appropriate, whatever. Yes - this is still a great site, yes - I have a lot of respect for Neal - but I still don't care for his recent song selection and yes - that is my problem and finally yes - I still really really hate MATO!. :laugh:


dtaylor
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Fri May 10, 2013 11:24 am

unclewalt wrote:
Um. Yikes.
Quite. I'm worn out after that.


BobR
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Fri May 10, 2013 11:37 am

Hi Mshrad :) , so what song did you suggest?

mshrad wrote:
Heck - the song I suggested likely will not ever make the top 50 -


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