Theoretical mussings on Theory

tovo
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Wed Dec 02, 2009 6:52 pm

OK I'm starting with an analogy. Not always a great idea as sometimes they fall flat but let's push on.

I suspect many of us are wine drinkers. In this country at least, wine connoisseurs are sometimes treated with disdain. They know a lot about what goes into making a wine, can pick varieties and sometimes even regions etc. The common response is "I just know what I like and I drink it". The connoisseur would argue that knowing the theory of wine makes it much more enjoyable to drink. The laypersons would say "just drink it!"

Well relating that to guitar theory, in my case at least, my theoretical knowledge sucks bad. I have a suspicion that it would be very good to learn but I tend to spend my limited time on learning songs not theory.

SO...the whole point of this thread (finally) is this question: Will splitting my time between learning songs and theory make me a much better player or will it just make playing more enjoyable because I know more about my subject? I suspect more experienced players will say "learn your theory young fella" I'd love some concrete examples of how it will be valuable.


haoli25
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Wed Dec 02, 2009 6:59 pm

Tony, I think learning at least some theory would be of particular value to you. Since you are both a singer and a guitar player, it is only a matter of time (if not already) until you begin songwriting. It will be very helpful to you.

...and as for the wine, I just drink it! :)



Bill


reiver
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Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:05 pm

I like the analogy of driving a car and understanding how the engine works. Learning the theory behind an internal combustion engine doesn't make you a better driver. Similarly, only practising playing will improve your chord changes or fingerpicking. However, there is a level at which a better understanding of the theory will help to develop the skills more fully.

You can learn to drive and pass your test without understanding anything that's going on under the bonnet, but if to want to drive in Formula 1 (or Nascar?) then you should probably know how the thing works.

That's just my view and I hope I didn't mix my analogy too much... :huh:

r


wrench
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Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:49 pm

Tony,

When I started playing, I debated with a guitar salesman that one could teach a monkey to play a guitar, as it is simply playing notes in an ordered sequence. To a large extent, I still think this is true, but what I learned since then is the fact that there is a vast opportunity for music and the satisfaction it brings beyond playing notes in an ordered sequence.

What I mean by that is I learn a familiar song, and don't I get real excited about it or feel a strong sense of achievement afterward. When I jam an original piece without hitting any foul notes because I know where notes are on the fretboard and I know some scales, I feel far more accomplished than the rote playing of notes, and I think that puts me a step ahead of the monkey.

I enjoyed some TG'ers original works immensely - Gary's "Founder By Chance" and Chris' "Cold as Gold" are standouts to me in the video collection, and I foresee a lot more of these creative submissions in the future. I think the reason for this is that we students will seek musical challenge and satisfaction by taking the theory and techniques we learn here and create something new with them. As exhibit A, I cite some guy playing AND singing Hallelujah recently.

To get more specific to your question though, I don't think learning music theory will necessarily improve your play of notes in an ordered sequence. But when you seek to apply your creativity, I think you will need theory, but I also think you will be rewarded with the personal enjoyment you and your audience will get from your music.

wrench


tovo
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Wed Dec 02, 2009 8:22 pm

Bill I suspect you are right, at this point however I still tend to see theory as "taking your lumps" Isn't that an American saying? Think so. As opposed to playing which is so enjoyable. Supporting what you say, I really feel that a solid theory knowledge is going to be a valuable asset.

Reiver, your car analogy was great. (I love a good analogy) "Understanding the engine doesn't make you a better driver." Sounds sensible.

Finally Wrench you helped as well, I can see that theory will help creativity immensely so that was a very useful thought. Anton was a great exhibit A I agree with you!

Oh and one more Bill...I just drink the wine too! ;)


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neverfoundthetime
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Wed Dec 02, 2009 9:09 pm

Wine analogies Tovo, now there's a Monty P sketch that comes to mind on that.... "a bottle of Cote du Rod Laver with an bouquet like an Aboriginie's armpit". Not to poo poo austrailian wines, mind you, they are my favourites! But I digress. You were asking (another) good question about theory. Well, I don't know my elbow from an E flat but I can often hear what's being played and copy it quite well. And I have survived 30 years without it. But I have noticed that I'm not able to find some things out for myself because I lack that knowledge. Makes me feel a bit thick, which I usually am not. I'm interested to find out but I'm also still a bit lazy. But The Genius series is quite easy to listen too and I am finding things sticking a bit better. Not making me play better yet but is helping me listen to Neil's lessons and understand things quicker.
There is much wisdom in the answers above from Wrench and Reiver. I get both points of view.


jayswett
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Wed Dec 02, 2009 9:13 pm

My analysis of this is very simple. I feel strongly that if anyone wants to become a truly skillful guitar player (or more generally, musician), then you must put in the time to learn the theory. Granted, there are those who know nothing about theory yet are incredible guitar players, but I think they are the exception and not the rule. I, too, enjoy the playing and learning of songs more so than learning the theory, but I do intend to get through the theory slowly and methodically.


reiver
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Wed Dec 02, 2009 10:03 pm

I do not believe that a skill can be improved significantly by any means other than practice. I am not denying that learning the theory will be extremely useful, but it wont make playing the guitar any easier. It may make me a better musician but it wont make me a better guitarist.

As for creativity.......this implies a certain amount of freedom of thought and originality which may well be stifled by too much theory. Do song writers not write their best songs when they are young and most likely unencumbered by too much theory?

Just my thoughts, I'm sure they're not shared by all........


r


tovo
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Wed Dec 02, 2009 10:15 pm

reiver wrote:
I do not believe that a skill can be improved significantly by any means other than practice. I am not denying that learning the theory will be extremely useful, but it wont make playing the guitar any easier. It may make me a better musician but it wont make me a better guitarist.

As for creativity.......this implies a certain amount of freedom of thought and originality which may well be stifled by too much theory. Do song writers not write their best songs when they are young and most likely unencumbered by too much theory?

Just my thoughts, I'm sure they're not shared by all........


r
Maybe not shared by all Reiver but I like this argument: "It may make me a better musician but it wont make me a better guitarist".


__m__
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Wed Dec 02, 2009 11:50 pm

Not trying to beat a dead horse here, but I'd like to share my analogy.

First of all, my wife is a music teacher (BS in both music performance (horn) and music education working on masters), so she has some disdain for those who play but don't feel the need to learn theory. Even the most basic of it such as scales is valued with much importance to her. She feels the same, there are many that can perform (or be trained monkeys as stated) but one can't get to higher levels without understanding why it is.

For me, it's very simple. I ride a motorcycle (Ducati Monster 695 pics in profile if anyone is interested), and I do all my own wrenching on it. Same with my truck, or any other vehicle I've owned. Does it make me a better rider or driver? I think it does. One understand how it works and why it works and therefore, what can be done and how to achieve it. Race car drivers do not just start driving (well, most), the normally start at the bottom, cleaning tools, then move to a pit crew, then up from there. Very few turn out to be great drivers even though the could drive well. Just as very few make it to Rock Stardom, but many people can play quite well.

Anyway, just wanted to share my perspective... KEEP ROCKIN! B)


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