Major Scale Patterns Question, from Fundamentals 2, Acoustic Genius Series

heyjoe
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Mon Mar 29, 2010 4:53 pm

Rick, I'm with you in the shallow end, I think Bear just flooded my theory pool :laugh: .

Ok, I'm getting it, but Bear just confused me with this
For example, if you start Scale Pattern One with the root at the fifth fret (you must use the root note only!) you are in the key of A. And the patters are sequential so Scale Pattern Two is the next pattern up the neck and Scale Pattern 6 is the adjacent pattern down the neck (toward the nut). Remember, there is no pattern four although some websites still use this labelling system.
Ok, the only bit I got of that was the first sentence- 6th string, 5th fret, Key of A, gotcha. Next pattern, No.2 would be using Note number 2 in the scale, so would be B, starting on 7th fret, Pattern 3 would start on C#, 9th fret, yes?

So, why no pattern 4, and why is pattern 6 adjacent down the neck?

From what I got from Neil's explanantion, ( and I may have this wrong), each pattern in a particular key is determined by the number it is in the scale, is that correct? So pattern 5 starts with the 5th note from the scale in question?

At what point do you stop goin up the neck, is there a rule for this?

I feel a can of worms opening up here, as I'm sure I'm missing something really important, but who better to ask than the TG guys

Thanks

Joe


sws626
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Mon Mar 29, 2010 5:06 pm

heyjoe wrote:

At what point do you stop goin up the neck, is there a rule for this?

I feel a can of worms opening up here, as I'm sure I'm missing something really important, but who better to ask than the TG guys

Thanks

Joe
Hi Joe,

You stop going up the neck when you run out of neck.

It sounds like you're doing fine and I don't think you are missing anything. They are just patterns -- made easy to remember and move around the fretboard by the fact that (most of) the strings are separted by fifths.

-Stuart


BigBear
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Mon Mar 29, 2010 7:23 pm

heyjoe wrote:
Rick, I'm with you in the shallow end, I think Bear just flooded my theory pool :laugh: .

Ok, I'm getting it, but Bear just confused me with this
For example, if you start Scale Pattern One with the root at the fifth fret (you must use the root note only!) you are in the key of A. And the patters are sequential so Scale Pattern Two is the next pattern up the neck and Scale Pattern 6 is the adjacent pattern down the neck (toward the nut). Remember, there is no pattern four although some websites still use this labelling system.
Ok, the only bit I got of that was the first sentence- 6th string, 5th fret, Key of A, gotcha. Next pattern, No.2 would be using Note number 2 in the scale, so would be B, starting on 7th fret, Pattern 3 would start on C#, 9th fret, yes?

So, why no pattern 4, and why is pattern 6 adjacent down the neck?

From what I got from Neil's explanantion, ( and I may have this wrong), each pattern in a particular key is determined by the number it is in the scale, is that correct? So pattern 5 starts with the 5th note from the scale in question?

At what point do you stop goin up the neck, is there a rule for this?

I feel a can of worms opening up here, as I'm sure I'm missing something really important, but who better to ask than the TG guys

Thanks

Joe

Joe- I was afraid I'd mess you up on this!! Sorry!

Let's try this again. You can put any scale pattern on any note and start from there but you won't necessarily be in the key you want to be in. Every scale pattern has either 2 or 3 root notes ie. in Scale Pattern #1 in the key of G, there are 3 G notes (on the 6th, 4th and 1st strings).

But only SP #1 will give you the correct notes in the correct places for a given key. Remember there are lots of G notes on the fret board and lots of scales that use G notes even if they aren't in the key of G. So only SP #1 will start the sequence of scale notes in the right location.

Okay, to be technically correct SP #6, which shares or begins SP #1, will do the same thing because they share the same root note on the 6th string. If this is confusing forget about it. Just use SP #1 to put the sequence of scale patterns in the correct place.

Now this is important, SP #1, in the key of A ends on the B note on the 6th string so SP #2 also begins on the same B note. Therefore, there will also be a root note (G) in that pattern on the 4th string, 7th fret. And you are correct, SP #3 starts on the C# at the 9th fret.

So if we are still in the key of A the scale patterns from the nut would be SP's 6-1-2-3-5 with SP # 1 starting at the G# on the 4th fret and the root right next to it at A.

You are correct that SP# 5 (if we use 1,2,3,5,6) starts on D, the 5th note of the G scale.

Neil is one of the few musicians that renames the 4th scale pattern but his logic is hard to deny, there are no 4ths in these scales so it is misleading to label them as SP #4. Just be aware when you discuss SP # 5 that you have to know whether you are using Neil's system or most of systems on the internet.

Stuart is right that the patterns go all the way up the neck because the scales just keep repeating until you run out of frets. But they also loop around at the 12th fret meaning you can play SP #1 (in the key of G) with the root at the 15th fret or the 3rd fret.

Joe, I think you have this figured out. There is no can of worms, and trying to explain it in words is harder than it sounds. I tried to post a graphic of this but I didn't get it right so maybe I'll try again.

I hope this helps a little because it's really worth getting it down pat! :cheer:


johnrfeeney
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Mon Mar 29, 2010 7:57 pm

what i have been working on is learning the seven positions of the major scale and learning them at the same fret off the low E string - say at the 5th or 7th fret. It doesn't matter what fret - I am just memorizing the positions themselves. Then you can play any scale at any position if you know the notes of the scale.

ie lets keep it simple and use the G scale. In the G major scale there is only one sharp and it is the F#. So if you wanted to play the G maj. scale starting on the F# note you would start at the 2nd fret off the low E string and play the 7th position.

By the way this can be done with the maj and min Pentatonic except there you only use the 1,2,3, 5 and 6 notes of whatever scale you are in and just memorize the 5 positions. Same goes for the minor scales. And like Neil says all you do is sharp the 7th note to make the natural minor a harmonic minor scale and sharp the 6th and 7th notes to make it a melodic minor.

I have been working on this since December. It's getting easier but it's boring and takes alot of dedicated time. Go slow but be consistent.


BigBear
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Mon Mar 29, 2010 8:18 pm

johnrfeeney wrote:
what i have been working on is learning the seven positions of the major scale and learning them at the same fret off the low E string - say at the 5th or 7th fret. It doesn't matter what fret - I am just memorizing the positions themselves. Then you can play any scale at any position if you know the notes of the scale.

ie lets keep it simple and use the G scale. In the G major scale there is only one sharp and it is the F#. So if you wanted to play the G maj. scale starting on the F# note you would start at the 2nd fret off the low E string and play the 7th position.

By the way this can be done with the maj and min Pentatonic except there you only use the 1,2,3, 5 and 6 notes of whatever scale you are in and just memorize the 5 positions. Same goes for the minor scales. And like Neil says all you do is sharp the 7th note to make the natural minor a harmonic minor scale and sharp the 6th and 7th notes to make it a melodic minor.

I have been working on this since December. It's getting easier but it's boring and takes alot of dedicated time. Go slow but be consistent.

John- I think what you are saying is you are learning the entire fretboard which is fantastic! Neil highly encourages this as I recall. And then learning the scales.

The only drawback I can see is if you want to play something in F# for example, you have to remember what notes are in the F# scale and then where they all occur on the fret board. The computer in my brain is an old 286 model and I don't have that much brain power! lol! But I can remember the scale pattern shapes and move them around the fret board.

It would be an interesting forum question to see how people learn the fret board and scales. As individual notes or as shapes and patterns. :cheer:


heyjoe
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Tue Mar 30, 2010 2:43 am

Hello John

Thanks for the reply, it helped quite a bit, the mists are clearing. Your point about G and F# got me understanding something Bear mentioned, speaking of which...

Hi Bear..you have the ability to educate and confuse me at the same time! Please don't apologise for confusing me, the fact that people like you are willing to help me navigate these waters is brilliant, thanks for spending your time helping me.

Now, time to get back in the water and start paddling...
Let's try this again. You can put any scale pattern on any note and start from there but you won't necessarily be in the key you want to be in. Every scale pattern has either 2 or 3 root notes ie. in Scale Pattern #1 in the key of G, there are 3 G notes (on the 6th, 4th and 1st strings).
Understanding so far :)
But only SP #1 will give you the correct notes in the correct places for a given key. Remember there are lots of G notes on the fret board and lots of scales that use G notes even if they aren't in the key of G. So only SP #1 will start the sequence of scale notes in the right location.
Still understanding :)
Okay, to be technically correct SP #6, which shares or begins SP #1, will do the same thing because they share the same root note on the 6th string. If this is confusing forget about it. Just use SP #1 to put the sequence of scale patterns in the correct place.

Now this is important, SP #1, in the key of A ends on the B note on the 6th string so SP #2 also begins on the same B note. Therefore, there will also be a root note (G) in that pattern on the 4th string, 7th fret. And you are correct, SP #3 starts on the C# at the 9th fret.

So if we are still in the key of A the scale patterns from the nut would be SP's 6-1-2-3-5 with SP # 1 starting at the G# on the 4th fret and the root right next to it at A.

You are correct that SP# 5 (if we use 1,2,3,5,6) starts on D, the 5th note of the G scale.

Neil is one of the few musicians that renames the 4th scale pattern but his logic is hard to deny, there are no 4ths in these scales so it is misleading to label them as SP #4. Just be aware when you discuss SP # 5 that you have to know whether you are using Neil's system or most of systems on the internet.
Erm :(

Kinda get bits of it but not all. Bits I get

Key of G. SP#1 starts 3rd fret fat E string...therefore working backwards, Open E is SP#6..as E is 6th note in scale..yes?

The above can then be applied on all strings in whatever keys, its all about counting backwards and forwards. Using (sometimes) 3 notes per string, and remembering to move down and back to next string down, dropping 5 frets, or 4 depending on string, I think.

Moving on to your Key of A explanation..only reason I know B and C are SP#2 and 3 is because of the A major scale, they are notes 2 and 3, so using 3 notes per fret they would be on 7th and 9th frets! yay or nay on the reasoning?

The next chunk (sorry if thats too technical :P )..loses me. Why no 4th on SP#?
If we're in the Key of A, starting on 5th fret fat E string, working back would mean E is SP#5, wouldn't it, or am I missing something here?

Stuart is right that the patterns go all the way up the neck because the scales just keep repeating until you run out of frets. But they also loop around at the 12th fret meaning you can play SP #1 (in the key of G) with the root at the 15th fret or the 3rd fret.
Completely get the circle explanation you mentioned earlier :)

I'm already understanding more about this than I ever did, its not completely sorted in my head yet, but we're getting there, and I can already see the benefits

Thanks

Joe


heyjoe
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Fri Apr 02, 2010 2:55 pm

Hey Bear & theory guys, you about?

Really could do with an answer to my above post, if thats possible.

Just got back from 3 days away from TG, so my head is ready for more theory.

Thanks

Joe


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