Still trying to understanding scale

beer
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Thu May 12, 2011 9:28 pm

I have been learning the five pentatonic positions (boxes) over the past month. Just when I thought I was begining to understand how they work I find something that contradicts what I thought I understood. So any suggestions would be appreciated. It is my understanding that the pentatonic scale uses note 1,2,3,5 and 6 regardless of what key you are playing in. I thought the root note of the scale would be note one thus you would play pattern one when starting on the root note. However today I discovered this to be incorrect. If your playing in the key of d you would start on the low E string fret 10 with pattern five even though D is the root note. I guess my question is how do you know what pattern to play if the patterns don't coincide with the positions of the notes? I am determined to figure this out. Dazed and confused!


AndyT
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Fri May 13, 2011 2:05 am

Ahhh. Fairly easy Grasshopper.

Ok, scratch this into your brain...
If the band is playing in 'G', then you need to play in Em Pentatonic, which means you use the open 6th string as your number 1 on the pattern and base everything from there.

How do you know what key to play in?

G - 2 = E
(G F E) Don't count sharps or flats. It's just that simple. Now there are loads to go along with that, but that is the basis of it and will get you going.


sws626
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Fri May 13, 2011 4:47 am

Hi Beer,

First, you need to distinguish between a pattern and a scale. A pattern can start and end on any note of a scale (not necessarily the root), as long as it contains notes in the scale for which it is a pattern. A scale begins and ends on the root.

A pentatonic scale contains the 1, 2, 3, 5, and 6 of the key you are playing. What pattern you play (what note you start on) depends on many factors, such as what chord you are playing over, what register you want to sound (low on the neck, as in a walking bassline or bluesy turnaround, or high on the neck as in a screaming solo), etc.

The relationship Andy refers to, in which you might, for example, play an Em pentatonic scale over a song in G is based on the fact that Em is the relative minor scale with respect to G major. That is to say, the full Em scale (E, F#, G, A, B, C, D) contains all of the same notes as the full G major scale (G, A, B, C, D, E, F#) . This is really just another way of saying that Em is a "mode" of G -- the "natural minor," "sixth," or "Aeolian" mode. Don't worry, you don't have to learn Greek to understand modes. It's enough to understand that, for a given scale, there are seven possible "modes," each containing all of the same notes, but beginning on a different root.

So, to get back to your question and Andy's response, playing an Em pentatonic over a song in G will sound fine because all of the notes of the Em pentatonic are also notes in the G major scale. However, since the 1, 2, 3, 5, and 6 notes of the Em pentatonic scale (E, F#, G, B, C) are not the same as the notes of the G major pentatonic scale (G, A, B, D, E), playing an Em pentatonic scale will sound different than playing either the full G major / Em scale or playing the G major pentatonic.

Any of the pattern positions you want to use for a D pentatonic scale will sound fine when played over a song written in D major (as will any position of the Bm pentatonic scale, from the relative minor of D major). It just depends on how you want to sound.

-Stuart


mark
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Fri May 13, 2011 4:52 am

AndyT wrote:
Ahhh. Fairly easy Grasshopper.

Ok, scratch this into your brain...
If the band is playing in 'G', then you need to play in Em Pentatonic, which means you use the open 6th string as your number 1 on the pattern and base everything from there.

How do you know what key to play in?

G - 2 = E
(G F E) Don't count sharps or flats. It's just that simple. Now there are loads to go along with that, but that is the basis of it and will get you going.
I think Andy's advice here confuses the situation a bit.
The formula given doesn't work in all instances
In the key of E it would be E- 2 = C
C isn't right it should be C#

The way I understand it is this
There are two flavours of pentatonic scale - the major pentatonic scale and the minor pentatonic

play the major pentatonic over song in a major key which have a pop/country feel
play the minor pentatonic over songs in a minor key or songs with a blues or blues rock feel


There is a relationship between the major and minor pentatonic scales.
The major pentatonic scale = minor pentatonic scale but played 3 frets (or a tone and a half) up

so G major pentatonic = Em minor pentatonic
E major pentatonic = C# minor pentatonic

The notes of these scales are the same. The difference is that they have different root notes.

Some examples would be
a pop/country song in G - play the G major pentatonic
a blues song in G - play the G minor pentatonic

These are just general guidlines and the rules get broken often

This is a confusing subject and it takes time to get to grips with it - I'm still waiting for the day that it is really clear.
The best thing is to try it practically. Play your scales over a progression and see if they fit.


beer
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Fri May 13, 2011 7:17 am

Thanks for the advice. Maybe I am complicating this by stressing over the five patterns. Is it safe to say that any of these five patterns can be played anywhere on the guitar neck as long as they contain the notes that relate to the key in which is being played?


mark
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Fri May 13, 2011 7:37 am

beer wrote:
Thanks for the advice. Maybe I am complicating this by stressing over the five patterns. Is it safe to say that any of these five patterns can be played anywhere on the guitar neck as long as they contain the notes that relate to the key in which is being played?
Yes that's right
Where each pattern is played is determined by which key you are playing in.

The 5 patterns are always in the same order relative to each other
and remember that they are interlinked so that the front of one pattern is also the back of the next pattern


frybaby
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Fri May 13, 2011 1:20 pm

Not to add to the confusion, but may I share what I know about the pentatonic scale is this;

There are in fact 5 different patterns, but there are two pentatonic patterns( that I know of)
1 The Major Pentatonic
2. The Minor Pentatonic
The 5 patterns for the Major Pentatonic are different that than the 5 patterns for the Minor Pentatonic.

By different I mean they are different in the way they are numbering ( put similar in their pattern)

For example the number 1 pattern played for the Major Pentatonic is the number 2 pattern in the Minor Pentatonic, but share the same pattern.

Each pattern of a particular plays the same note of the all the 5 patterns,, just a in a different octave.

When played according to the pattern, the starting note is the root note of the Scale in which the pattern is being played.

The Pentatonic scale (Major or Minor) includes only 5 (Penta means 5 in some foreign language) notes of a scale.

For instance if you are playing a song in the Key of G you would be playing (for the most part) the notes of the G scale. If you were to play a Major Pentatonic pattern starting on the root you would in effect be playing only 5 notes of the G scale)

The G Major scale contains 8 notes : G A B C D E F# G.

Each note in a scale is assigned a number, in the case of G, - - G=1,A=2,B=3 and so on)

The major pentatonic pattern is a derivative of the G Major scale and plays only five of the 8 notes in a scale.

The G major pentatonic scale would include G, A, B.D,E G ( or with numbers 1,2,3,5 6 1).
The first 1 and the last 1 in the pattern count only as one tone because the are both G’s just an octave apart.

You can always start the Pentatonic pattern with the root, and it will fit in the G Major scale,
but you can use other notes as the starting point, say 3=B and it will work.

No matter which note you start on if you stay with the pattern you are in the G Major pentatonic.



Hope that helps
Frybaby


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