A hypothetical question for anyone, but especially for the music teacher!(s)

TGMatt
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Wed Oct 12, 2011 2:12 pm

Say I have a quarter note followed by another quarter note. Are these notes always played exactly as written, or can a person shave a whisker off the first note and give it to the second note? Doing this changes the sound of the piece, as you can imagine.

I bought the book Your Brain on Music and it has raised some questions.

Sam


reiver
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Wed Oct 12, 2011 2:42 pm

I'm no music teacher - but I'll have a go!

I'd say yes - you should play around with the timings within the confines of the written music. (In fact, I think it's one of the things that Evelyn Glennie touches on in her TED lecture which has been posted on the forum a couple of times. It's that kind of thing that the musician brings to the music to mark it with their own personality).

If you want to know what the music would sound like without those touches - just play it through on Guitar Pro. Then listen to a great guitarist, such as Neil, when he plays it. Guitar Pro may play it "correctly" with precise timings on all the notes - but it has no soul*. That's what the musician brings.

Stuart

* no, I can't define this!


BigBear
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Wed Oct 12, 2011 2:48 pm

Sam-

This is an easy one and doesn't require a teacher. If you play every note exactly as shown you will sound like a robot trying to play the guitar. I think the whole idea behind music notation was to memorialize music so that others could play it later, especially before the era of mechanical recording.

The whole concept of whole, half, quarter notes, etc. is man's attempt to get as close to the intended, or original, sound as possible. But it is not an exact science, just a close approximation. And the tablature that most guitarists use doesn't give us much in the way of timing.

Watch a lot of the student videos on TG and you will see that they may play the song well but it sounds flat and without feeling. Feeling, which is what makes a song real, stems from a couple of things. First, for us guitarists, is the weight of each stoke, both up and down, and the number of strings hit or plucked. And secondly, how much we alter the precise timing of each note, "shaving a whisker" as you call it. That's why two players can perform the same song and it will sound much differently. I'm deliberately ommitting other techniques like adornments; vibrato, pull-offs, hammer-ons, trills, slides, bends, etc.

This is my chief objection to metronome learning. It is vital for guitarists at all levels to use one to figure out the song but it needs to be turned off in order to really get the feel of the song right.

Finally, in order to get feel you must hold the pick loosely (or your picking hand) and keep your strumming or fingerpicking arm as loose as possible. Tension is the "timing killer".

Good question!

Happy playin' and cheers! :cheer:


willem
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Wed Oct 12, 2011 3:13 pm

I agree with Bear,,you can even smuggle with lyrics pronunciation,, we do that a lot with Dutch..


willem
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Wed Oct 12, 2011 3:16 pm

Stuart and Bear

Thank you so much!

Today has been a learning experience for me.

Sam


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Music Junkie
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Wed Oct 12, 2011 3:33 pm

There are also different types of "feel" (maybe a poor choice of words). Swing time for example give unequal time to notes that are "equal" in length. At least I believe so...


RicksPick
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Wed Oct 12, 2011 3:41 pm

Thank you from me too
Helped me to understand this thing called FEELING
Thanks Rick, and thanks Sam for the question

RicksPick


RicksPick
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Wed Oct 12, 2011 6:39 pm

I will now remove this from the realm of the hypothetical........

As some of you know, I have been trying to learn the intro to "Dust in the Wind" for over a year. No matter how I played it, it was wrong!

I played with Neil on the "slow it down" portion of the lesson and then tried to speed it up to normal. It never sounded right. Today I tried with the fast version, 94 half notes, and my fingers began doing what Neil was doing. It took about an hour for me to play it by myself and make it sound the same, but--drum roll--I DID IT!

Maybe someone can, but I cannot play it as written and make it sound right. Neither can GP6, or at least what was given to me on another thread.

So, it has rained in Oklahoma--finally--and there is no more dust in the wind.

I can move on! Where's the rum and coke?

TCS


BigBear
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Thu Oct 13, 2011 2:13 am

TwoCatSam wrote:
I will now remove this from the realm of the hypothetical........

As some of you know, I have been trying to learn the intro to "Dust in the Wind" for over a year. No matter how I played it, it was wrong!

I played with Neil on the "slow it down" portion of the lesson and then tried to speed it up to normal. It never sounded right. Today I tried with the fast version, 94 half notes, and my fingers began doing what Neil was doing. It took about an hour for me to play it by myself and make it sound the same, but--drum roll--I DID IT!

Maybe someone can, but I cannot play it as written and make it sound right. Neither can GP6, or at least what was given to me on another thread.

So, it has rained in Oklahoma--finally--and there is no more dust in the wind.

I can move on! Where's the rum and coke?

TCS
Sam- I've been playing DITW pretty much the same for over 20 years. The only question is whether it starts on a C or C7. I've chosen to go with Neil's C because he's forgotten more about the guitar than I know. But I've seen other tab show it differently. It does sound like C to me but I'm not the best judge.

The key to this song, IMHO, is the initial pinch at each measure. This is where timing develops feel. If you listen to Kerry Livgren play this song (remember there is another guitar playing the same chords but in Nashville tuning where the low 4 strings are replaced with higher strings to emulate a 12-string) there is a distinct pause before he starts a another verse. This pause creates tension and contributes to the overall effect. If you play this song with precise timing you lose this effect and the robot-feel replaces it.

Congrats on making good progress with DITW. It's a wonderful song that should be in every guitarist's bag of tricks! :cheer:


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neverfoundthetime
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Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:43 am

I played with Neil on the "slow it down" portion of the lesson and then tried to speed it up to normal. It never sounded right. Today I tried with the fast version, 94 half notes, and my fingers began doing what Neil was doing. It took about an hour for me to play it by myself and make it sound the same, but--drum roll--I DID IT!
So what happened here Sam is that you stopped reading the notes (by then you'd internalized them) and you just went with the flow, the feel and sound and focussed on emulating that. That's where I find I have to get too as quickly as possible when I'm learning a song because it takes me soooooooooo long when reading the tab or sheet music to learn a song. I want to skip that part as much as possible... but of course, I need to go back and make sure I'm not losing too much in translation. It may seem to some a messy way of learning but I'd encourage you to be less analytical at times and just go with your ears and the feel of the hands and fingers... sort of letting go and letting the song catch up with you. I'm almost incapable of learning any other way, its become such a habit for me.

Nice inputs from our big furry friend. I just hope the read-between-the-lines oriented types (like me) ignored the unintended general and unspecific put-down when Bear said:
Watch a lot of the student videos on TG and you will see that they may play the song well but it sounds flat and without feeling.
... I know no put-down was intended. Must be what happens when those big paws hit the tiny keyboard. ;-)
Just poking you with a stick Bear before the winter hibernation sets in, my friend.


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