A riff is a riff. Or is it?

willem
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Sun Oct 05, 2014 3:43 am

I remember Neil used these names "riff and vamp" in a few lessons,, wish I remember which lessons.

Riff , vamp,, always thought it was a short melodic filler to break up the song a bit.


fjeanmur
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Sun Oct 05, 2014 5:40 am

willem wrote:
I remember Neil used these names "riff and vamp" in a few lessons,, wish I remember which lessons.

Riff , vamp,, always thought it was a short melodic filler to break up the song a bit.
Hey Willem!

"It's Too Late" by Carol King is one that I can think of off hand. In fact, that was the first time I heard the term used in that sense. There was another one I came across recently, but I can't remember what it was.

Jean


michelew
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Sun Oct 05, 2014 7:36 am

fjeanmur wrote:
willem wrote:
I remember Neil used these names "riff and vamp" in a few lessons,, wish I remember which lessons.

Riff , vamp,, always thought it was a short melodic filler to break up the song a bit.
Hey Willem!

"It's Too Late" by Carol King is one that I can think of off hand. In fact, that was the first time I heard the term used in that sense. There was another one I came across recently, but I can't remember what it was.

Jean
There's a vamp from A13sus4 to Asus2 in lesson Scarborough Fair - Simon and Garfunkel. It's sort of hypnotic. :)


willem
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Sun Oct 05, 2014 1:09 pm

michelew wrote:
fjeanmur wrote:
willem wrote:
I remember Neil used these names "riff and vamp" in a few lessons,, wish I remember which lessons.

Riff , vamp,, always thought it was a short melodic filler to break up the song a bit.
Hey Willem!

"It's Too Late" by Carol King is one that I can think of off hand. In fact, that was the first time I heard the term used in that sense. There was another one I came across recently, but I can't remember what it was.

Jean
There's a vamp from A13sus4 to Asus2 in lesson Scarborough Fair - Simon and Garfunkel. It's sort of hypnotic. :)
I will check those songs,,Not so long ago I worked on scaboro,,can't remember Neil used these names,,

This is also a tune I worked on lately,, is it a vamp,,is it a riff,,,don't know..







TGNesh
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Sun Oct 05, 2014 3:12 pm

Willem: Try Pink Moon-Nick Drake. :) (the Vamp)


michelew
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Sun Oct 05, 2014 10:13 pm

michelew wrote:
TGNeil wrote:
Hi Michele,

... Street Spirit is really an arpeggio with an upper voice outlining a simple melody. ...

In spite of the fact that it moves quickly, I would like to hear what everybody thinks is going on as far as the chord progression and exact notes played over each chord. Another community project if you will.

Neil
Thanks so much Neil.

If I understand you correctly, you're saying this is just a picking pattern for a rapidly changing chord progression. So the two bars that repeat for a lot of the song would seem to break into the following:

- bass - a sustained low A on the fifth string (until the E in the second part of the second bar)
- drone - a repeating A on the third string
- simple melody - E, D, E, C, E, B, ( or just a descending D, C, B if the E is also a drone or the drone).
...
So I think roughly it is:

Verse
- A5 (or Am), Asus4, Am, Asus2 - repeated a lot until the E section
- Em (with variations)
- A5, Asus4, Am, Asus2

Chorus
C Em/B (maybe) Am (or some fancier versions of those chord)
C Em
...
.


The above rough map obviously makes no attempt to work out the actual structure, as in the length of each section. So here is an attempt to do that.

I'm treating the picking pattern as two bars. Chords inside [] denotes a bar. Everywhere else, a chord is a full bar. I haven't added in what the fancier version of the Em chords might be at this point, as... Well I'm not sure it needs to be put down ... And I doubt I have it right anyway.

As far as I can tell, the high melody with E D E C E B in continues throughout the whole song. It gets a bit dense at the end so I can't hear it as well. An additional (I think) high repeating melody starts at the beginning of the third verse.

Ok so if anyone wants to add, alter, argue, confirm...whatever...the following go for it. I'll just squeeze my eyes and hope it's not too off. :) B) :woohoo: :blush:


Progression - Street Spirit

Intro
[A5 Asus4] [Am Asus2] x 4 (four repeats of the picking pattern)

Verse 1 (rows of houses...)
[A5 (or Am) Asus4] [Am Asus2] x 4
Em Em Em Em (I.e. for four bars, high melody continues (x2) but with E in bass and E drone)
[A5 Asus4] [Am Asus2] x2

Chorus (fade out again...)
C C (high melody picking pattern remains with C in bass) x 1
Em/B Em/B
[A5 Asus4] [Am Asus2] x2
C C Em Em

Verse 2 (This machine will, will not communicate...)
[A5 (or Am) Asus4] [Am Asus2] x 4
Em Em Em Em
[A5 Asus4] [Am Asus2] x2

Chorus (fade out again...)
C C Em/B Em/B
[A5 Asus4] [Am Asus2] x2
C C Em Em
Am Am

Bridge ow, ow, ow x6 (6 cycles of the high melody)
C C Em Em
[A5 Asus4] [Am Asus2] x2
C C Em Em

Verse 3 (cracked eggs, dead birds...)
[A5 (or Am) Asus4] [Am Asus2] x 4
Em Em Em Em
[A5 Asus4] [Am Asus2] x2

Chorus (fade out again...) A second mostly repeating melody comes in here
C C Em/B Em/B
[A5 Asus4] [Am Asus2] x2
C C Em Em
Am Am

Bridge ow, ow, ow x15

(Bridge x 2?) merging into (Immerse yourself in love, immerse yourself in love)

End
[A5 Asus4] [Am Asus2]


While the third verse is playing a new melody is playing the following against each two bar segment

Verse 3 --------------------------------------- Extra melody
[A5 (or Am) Asus4] [Am Asus2] x4 -------C B G E A B C x 4
Em Em x 2 ------------------------------------- C B G C B G
[A5 (or Am) Asus4] [Am Asus2] -----------C B G E A B C
[A5 (or Am) Asus4] [Am Asus2]. ----------C B A E C A


dougyoung
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Mon Oct 06, 2014 6:35 pm

These terms are vague enough (or misused enough) that you probably should ask anyone who uses them what they mean. But to me (and I suspect most working musicians) a vamp is just a groove with a simple cycle of chords, or even a simple chord (as in "vamp in Am for a while"). The Carole King tune is a good example. A vamp is something the band plays while they're stalling for time, or playing while someone's making an announcement, or... It'sa lull in the music, maybe a pause before someone takes a solo, and so on. A riff is a "hook", a melodic instrumental phrase, like the intro to Day Tripper or I Feel Fine, or Smoke on the Water, or Satisfaction, or Sweet Home Alabama. Where it gets messy is "can I play a riff over a vamp?" Sure. And if I just repeat a riff over and over, am I vamping on the riff? Sure.


michelew
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Mon Oct 06, 2014 9:09 pm

Thanks for the response Doug. It's great to hear more about wht the terms mean in practice and that there is some fuzziness about what it means at times.

I'll check out the tunes you suggested to remind myself of their riffs.

Thanks.

M


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