WISH YOU WERE HERE

BigBear
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2009 11:02 am
Status: Offline

Mon Mar 15, 2010 1:13 pm

Bud- this is another in a long string of videos from you on "first takes" or songs that you are just getting into. As such this is a good start.

But that isn't the goal of the video program. Since you are new here you probably don't know that the goal is not to flood the forum with videos. I don't know anyone who has posted even half the number of videos you have let alone in one month.

Nothing wrong with posting videos, but spend some time learning the song before you post. The videos aren't about ego or "don't I play great?". They are for musicians who have reached a point while working on a particular song that they just can't past a particular part or have a technical problem that the fourum, or Neil, can help them with. I WANT to help you, I just don't want to watch you learn every song you want to play. If we all did that there would be thousands of videos and no one could even use the forum anymore.

I've spent a lot of hours on Wish You Were Here and I've got it down pretty well but I just need to play it more. Since I don't have any particular problem other than just more practice time there is no need to post a video about it and take everyone's time responding. I don't need to hear how great I play it. David Gilmour I'm not! lol!

And that's all you really need too. Just practice the songs more! You are a good player, you don't need us to tell you that. But no one needs to see your first takes on every song you try. ANd we don't need to see every song in the "Best of Buddy Song Book". Many players work months on a song before they post it. I suspect you are working much less than that on each one.

Get to a point where we on the forum can help you and we will. I tried to provide good, usable feedback on your first song but that seem to trigger the avalanche. No one can or should try to help you with a dozen or more video posts.

So keep up the good work and don't be afraid to post when you need help. But work hard to get to a point where watching Neil's videos won't solve your problem(s). And remember that posting songs not on the TARGET program is fine but is pretty much "show and tell" so don't let it be about ego. I think you have a strong "performer gene" somewhere! lol!

Cheers!

:cheer:


buddy
Posts: 0
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2009 3:35 pm
Status: Offline

Mon Mar 15, 2010 1:48 pm

Bigbear,

Although I appreciate your perspective, I do disagree with you. As long as other posters are willing to give me feedback I don't see how the forum is harmed, I actually think that the more videos that get added bring a better dynamic to the boards and have encouraged others to post more as well.

Not looking for a forum fight here, but I do have a totally different perspective on how I learn the guitar best, and that is with early feedback on the songs. This has nothing to do with ego or anything else and it is a rather big jump for you to presume such. It actually takes less ego to post these songs in their rough development with all their warts and blemishes. My goal for joining TG was to become a better player and to have some fun with others that would like to do the same. That is my motivation for posting videos it is not to impress the likes of yourself or others on the forum. I have grown fond of many members on TG and greatly appreciate that they take the time to provide tips and suggestion to me, if you don't wish to do so then no hard feelings, but please do not discourage others to stop doing so with posts like this.


Thanks,

Bud


BigBear
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2009 11:02 am
Status: Offline

Mon Mar 15, 2010 3:08 pm

Bud-

I'm not looking for any kind of fight with anyone. I've been around here too long. And this isn't a personal attack against you, I don't work that way. My goal is simply to increase access for all forum members and to keep us on track to some degree. And you seem like a great guy to me so let's take the personal part out of it. Hell, I'd love to play guitars with you anytime.

But where your argument breaks down is you aren't getting very much help with each of your posts. You get a lot of "great job", "wonderful video" stuff because few people are willing to say anything even close to negative to another player. And the people on this forum are incredibly supportive of each other. And I'm totally supportive of you as well.

I am simply suggesting that you might learn the song a little bit before you post it. There are hundreds of players, including me, here who could, if they so chose, to post as many videos as you have. Can you imagine the chaos on the forum if hundreds of players posted as many "first take" videos as you have? That is not the purpose of this education site.

Another way to look at this is I don't believe you've spent much time working on WYWH. By posting that video, what did you hope to learn? You don't know the song well enough for us to make suggestions on what you can improve on. You can play the chords just fine but you really need to spend some time working on the lead section slowly and carefully. If you are having trouble with all the bends in the lead section for example focus on that technique only, not the whole song. With time you will get really good on that song. That's when we all would like to see your video and when you have it down that's when Neil and us can help you the most.

All of us learn by practicing; practice, practice, practice is the mantra here at TG. It's great that you want early feedback. But who has time for that? These aren't private lessons at your local guitar shop. There are hundreds of students here all trying to enjoy TG and TARGET. And to get the most out of it and become better players. And we only have one single forum for everything.

Neil isn't going to respond to every iteration of every song (Drive Take 4?). He's just now responding to videos from months ago. And you aren't getting much feedback from any of the forum members except "great job". But you and I both know that all those videos don't warrant "great job". They are works in progress that someday may warrant "great job". And when they do you will deserve all the praise you can get.

An example of what I'm trying to say is watch MarkM's recent video of Norwegian Wood. He's put a ton of time into that song and it shows, or Wrench's recent video of the Sage, one of the toughest songs in the whole program. Or Mark's post of 4+20 or Michele's first singing video. All were fantastic and all are from different level guitarists. I could keep going but you see my point I hope. All those people have spent enormous time building their songs to the point where they posted them. They certainly didn't post their very early efforts although they could have.

So my point is simply keep posting as you choose but be mindful of whether you are posting to learn or posting to demonstrate. If that isn't ego call it what you will but we all have egos. Only you know your own motiviations. We all are committed to help each other and I sincerely believe you would get more useful feedback if you were more careful of what and how often you posted.

In my humble opinion it's quality over quantity when doing these student videos so please don't confuse my comments that I am discouraging anyone from posting videos. You and they know that it is certainly not true! I've posted hundreds of positive comments to other players, including you, that were very encouraging and positve. and I'm still encouraging you to post videos albeit a little more selectively. I want you to get the very best feedback you can get and you aren't getting it now.

If you still disagree with me just dismiss my posts with a grain of salt. No harm done and I'm only one member in a large group. I don't carry anymore weight than anyone else.

Cheers! :cheer:


unclewalt
Posts: 58
Joined: Sun May 31, 2009 11:14 am
Status: Offline

Mon Mar 15, 2010 4:01 pm

A least on this video, which is the first of Bud's I've seen or even really noticed (I'm not heavy forum user, though I do look in most days), he asked for help and got it, and even said exactly what he gets out of doing it:

"Marc, I always appreciate how you take the time to give me detailed constructive feedback. I am taking the approach that I post up a new song as soon as I can before I really have it down so that feedback like yours helps me move it along more quickly before I have some bad habits ingrained in the song. This appraoch has really helped me catch some things early as opposed to waiting longer in the process and thanks to all the TG folks for helping me out."

Seems to me he's using the uploads precisely for their intended purpose.

I agree that a string of posts saying nothing more than "great job" is pretty useless. But that's what nearly *all* of these videos create, until Neil gets at them or someone else says something useful -- as at least one person has done here. But that's not Bud's doing. And the other videos you mentioned as worthy of being posted got similar reactions.

How does Bud posting fewer videos "increase access" for other members? Any post or user is easily ignored, and members are free to choose which videos they watch and don't watch. What is Bud doing to limit that freedom? Similarly, Neil can and does pick and choose which vids to respond to, and Bud's not asking him to do otherwise, is he?

I'm not sure why there should be a lower limit on how far along one must be on learning a song before posting, and it seems perfectly legitimate -- even smart -- for Bud to seek help early on. Is this the place for "quality" or is it actually the place for crap? The latter, I would think, since learning how to stop being crappy is the whole point. If I want quality, I have millions of great video clips at my fingertips created by musicians who are a lot better than any TG member.

All that said, this particular example is pretty much useless because his left hand is out of frame.


unclewalt
Posts: 58
Joined: Sun May 31, 2009 11:14 am
Status: Offline

Mon Mar 15, 2010 4:08 pm

...or maybe the problem is simply that he should post the videos in a different topic, and save just one or two for when he needs Neil's help? If so, that seems like an easily solvable problem, if a problem it is.


buddy
Posts: 0
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2009 3:35 pm
Status: Offline

Mon Mar 15, 2010 5:28 pm

Bear,

I tried to respond to your first post graciously even though it was full of disguised insults. And yet you come back and insult me again in your passive aggressive style.

How did you insult me in your first post ? Here are a few of them;

1 - "The videos aren't about ego or "don't I play great?".
2 - "I don't need to hear how great I play it. David Gilmour I'm not! lol!"
3 - "You get a lot of "great job", "wonderful video" stuff because few people are willing to say anything even close to negative to another player"(I have encouraged other to give me critical feedback)
4 - "ANd we don't need to see every song in the "Best of Buddy Song Book"".(seems to me that Neil even enjoyed and encourages this since he reviewed one of them)
5 - "I tried to provide good, usable feedback on your first song but that seem to trigger the avalanche."
6 - "so don't let it be about ego. I think you have a strong "performer gene" somewhere!"

So let's get a couple of things straight,
1 - you are not the forum regulator
2 - I am not here to have an argument with you. Here is your quote in your second post "But where your argument breaks down". I am here to express my unfettered joy of music with others that have the same passion.
3 - I wish I had your God like ability to read peoples motivations and inspire them to create avalanches "I tried to provide good, usable feedback on your first song but that seem to trigger the avalanche. "

Sir, you have imputed motives to me that are quite offensive. As I tried to explain in my first response, I do not learn as you do and I am encouraged to perfect my playing early on in a song by others peoples input, is that not the beauty of a virtual forum ? If some take the time, and care enough to respond, then that is not impacting others like yourself that choose not to.

Sorry that others have had to see these posts but I have a real hard time with passive aggressive people that try to disguise their insults with lol.

Forum etiquette would dictate that these things are better vetted in a PM and I wish that this would have been handled in the same manner.

Bud


haoli25
Posts: 0
Joined: Thu Mar 12, 2009 7:06 am
Status: Offline

Mon Mar 15, 2010 5:35 pm



buddy
Posts: 0
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2009 3:35 pm
Status: Offline

Mon Mar 15, 2010 6:14 pm

Bill,

Thanks for that reminder.

Bud


coomba
Posts: 0
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2009 6:45 pm
Status: Offline

Mon Mar 15, 2010 6:19 pm

Ah the Seekers Spreading the luv
Nothing like a bouncing kangaroo and the Aussie outback to calm thinks down.
Thanks for that.
Cheers
Scott


BigBear
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2009 11:02 am
Status: Offline

Mon Mar 15, 2010 6:55 pm

Bud-

Clearly you are looking for insult where none is intended. And passive agressive is not a term you are apparently familiar with otherwise you probably wouldn't apply it to me who has a problem with being a little too blunt at times. I was trying very hard to gently tell you that you would get better feedback if you didn't post so many videos of yourself playing every song you know.

Put bluntly, since you joined 3 weeks ago you have posted ~15 videos. That is a staggering number of videos from a brand new guy. In fact, in three weeks you almost certainly have posted more videos of yourself playing than anyone else on this site by a wide margin in almost a year.

Some of your videos were quite good which sets the standard for those that weren't very good. It is flatly insulting to me and many other players to be subjected to an endless stream of videos from songs you don't even care enough about to learn before you ask us to watch them. Many of us try to watch every video posted to offer help, advice and support. That's the silent vow we have all taken to help each other get better.

So yes, we have the option to not watch your videos. But you violate the spirit of this wonderful forum by posting so many videos, so quickly, without giving much thought to the time it takes all of us who care about each other, to watch and give encouragement to another player who needs, and asks, for our help. Frankly, you don't need our help, you just want to hear yourself play. Where I'm from that's called ego, pure and simple. Maybe where you live they call it something else.

Walt's right, there is no limit on how many videos you can post. Common sense and respect for others is the only guide. And you are correct that I am not the regulator of this site and I am not seeking to regulate you. As a senior member my hope was that you might get my point and just back off a little bit. Not stop posting, just slow down and get a better handle of the songs you do post. That's all. Doesn't it strike you as odd that some members are getting 40-50 responses to their songs and you are only getting a handful and each new song is getting less and less? And really there isn't much help in those, just some really great members being supportive.

I'm sorry you took my comments so negatively and I apologize for any insults you may have perceived. You should by all means continue posting at your current rate and see if that produces the type of feedback and advice that helps you become a better player. If it does it proves that I am dead wrong. And please disregard everything I've taken the time to post because clearly I'm out of mind and delusional. But it does keep things exciting!

Cheers! :cheer:


Post Reply Previous topicNext topic