Have you regressed lately??

quincy451
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Sun Sep 27, 2009 1:48 am

TGMatt wrote:
Yup I agree it has to be fun..

Now I havent picked up a guitar in 3 weeks until I arrived at Neils today, and suprisingly to me, I could do some stuff ...and so it reminds me that once you have nailed a couple of things and it becomes part of teh hardwiring, it ends up being like riding a bike..you are intrinsically embedded with what to do...and thats why when you work on a part and get that small part right it is so useful for later on as you work through other transition things...

As a student of learning strategies too, spaced repetition is key for difficult stuff, a happy environment ( vome back to this place where you had a breakthrough before..it wil be a physical anchor a trigger to your mind of success)..

and also use visualization a lot, visualize the success even if it doesnt pan out immediately keep the mind games always positive see yourself doing it well and see yourself experiencing the success at the end..so not just the activity but the after the activity feeling of success and celebration..

I could write a book on this side of stuff..but I hope that is somehwat useful..
3 weeks try 30 years. I did that and to my huge suprise I still knew a bunch of stuff and work with that to this day. Yea the fingers wehre like, you want to do what? They just could not remember the spacing of frets and strings and such.

You make another good point. I have found with bar chords and other things that beginners stuggle with, that success comes not from intense concentration on the details. But when you relax and just do it and wait for it to come out right.


Chasplaya
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Sun Sep 27, 2009 1:54 am

I playing devils advocate here! I believe fjvdb has got it. Sometimes when moving forward and you are using whats termed insight learning adding to your framework, it is a psycological phenomena where you are in that transition and concentrating on advancing and building to the next level. You feel unsatisfied with the transition as you concentrate too hard and the muscle memory lags behind and struggles to file things in a 'normal'order. This is not uncommon with teaching 'old dogs new tricks'.

BUt it is a phenomena trainers need to be aware of and be capable of guiding students through. Also a phenomena student need to be aware of but not afraid of


wrench
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Sun Sep 27, 2009 8:02 am

Guitar playing is two parts - knowledge and physical skill. I think most of us can achieve the collection of knowledge on a faster curve than we can acquire the skill to execute it. For example, learning the fingering to Classical Gas compared to achieving a recordable performance of Classical Gas. These two curves will inevitably collide.

Every post on this thread has a piece of the puzzle, and I think the assembled puzzle is the set of fundamentals we need to use to play guitar. The setbacks we face are the introduction of non-fundamentals to our play.

The hard part is identifying the fundamental set. I haven't achieved this yet, but having trashed my progress, you can bet I'm working on it.

wrench


wrench
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Sun Sep 27, 2009 1:09 pm

Hiding in plain sight. The 5 Beginner Lessons.

I studied most of these in the last week and finished up today. I think nothing in the series is not fundamental, and the only beginner fundamental I can think of not in the series is holding the guitar.

I understand this gets much more complicated for more experienced players because you will have a larger set of fundamentals. I think it's key here to maintain a clear understanding of your fundamental skill set and keep intellectual content and physical skills separate.

It's real easy to get information at TG at a rate faster than one is able develop the corresponding physical skills. Maybe Neil needs to issue Guitar Drivers' Licenses or require video tests of previous material before allowing access to new material. Just kidding, although I think frequent videos of a specific skill with peer review is a viable method to monitor ourselves with the help of the TG Community.

Well, this is pretty clear to me. I will master (again) the Beginner Lessons, then monitor new material for compliance to fundamentals.

So I put Classical Gas on hold a bit while I work on Lucky Man......

wrench


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neverfoundthetime
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Sun Sep 27, 2009 7:34 pm

Every post on this thread has a piece of the puzzle, and I think the assembled puzzle is the set of fundamentals we need to use to play guitar. The setbacks we face are the introduction of non-fundamentals to our play.
Well put wrench! Fundamentals.

It’s way past my bedtime (again) but this thread has my attention. Chas’s has got us to spotlight how we experience learning. He certainly doesn’t believe there is regression in the learning curve. Neither do I. We may experience a plateau where nothing seems to be changing but when we walk a way for a few days and come back to it, suddenly it works better (seemingly by having a break from practicing). Our expectations change our perception. What we can do is not as acceptable anymore as what we want to do. We get stuck in a tight focus. When we take a break and come back to it more relaxed and less focussed, it all works and flows.

Our minds are wonderful things (most of yours will be, mine’s a mess!) and we accomplish much more with our subconscious or “Undermind” than we realise (- Guy Claxton, Hare Brain, Tortoise Mind). We spend most of our time in our digital, analytical mind (D-mode) taking things apart, thinking and calculating in a linear fashion doing things one at a time very fast like a computer. The Undermind is more like millions of networked computers performing countless actions simultaneously. It puts things together for us and allows us to perform complicated actions seeming unconsciously (subconsciously). Neil has talked about practicing until you can play a piece over and over watching TV (or doing whatever else). What happens is we let go of the sun-rays-through-the- magnifying-glass- type focus and fade to fuzzy focus. At this point the Undermind can finally do its job without the interference of the “Boss” upstairs in D-mode telling us what to do.
In a sense, we get out of our own way. Timothy Gallway, in The Inner Game of Tennis, drew attention to this in his ideas about Self1 and Self2. If self1 would just get out of the way (with all its instructions, orders and analysing), Self2 is perfectly capable of getting things done PERFECTLY and effortlessly. We flow.

I have almost never used TABS because I’m too impatient and that process takes too much time for me to read, find out which fingers to move where and slowly think it through (analysing in D-mode). I’m slow if I have to read or listen to instructions. If someone shows me the moves (gives me a visual) or just plays it, I can get a “feel” for it and can get 95% of it down much faster by not engaging my thinking brain but by allowing the rhythm and feel to come through in a much more fuzzier way (engaging my Undermind, or Self2). This is MUCH faster for me and much more fun. This is a FUNdaMENTAL way for me to learn. Of course, the analytical part of understanding what you are doing (the MENTAL part) is important too but the FUN part (just having a go, letting go, flying over it) is much more important. Maybe we spend too much time in that tight focused, verbal, thinking state and not enough in the visual, feely, fuzzy focus state. That slows progress and blocks flow. I know of a pianist teacher in Germany (he’s Chinese) who gives his pupils pieces to learn that are a little above their level. Next week thy get an even more difficult piece to do and no more time on the old piece. This goes on for several weeks. Weeks later they are asked to play the original piece (which they haven’t practiced since) and they play it much, much better than before. The Undermind has been allowed to do its work.

I don’t think there is ever any regression involved. Hyper-focus blocks flow and distorts perception, expectations are raised and frustration is allowed to take over. Let it go do something else, get distracted, come back later and just wing it and see what happens. Results may be surprising.

Hope that's ok, the was a call for coach's opinion back there in the thread.


goldleaf
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Sun Sep 27, 2009 8:27 pm

I really like the idea of video's. I haven't done one yet but I intend to soon. I am already planning, when I do a video, I will have to pick out a song within my reach, and practice it until I feel at least competent. The idea of playing on video is a motivator for me, not as a competition with others but as an a demonstration to myself of what new skills I've learned. Gary


heyjoe
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Mon Sep 28, 2009 6:38 am

I've read all the posts on here, and agree with a lot of what has been said- muscle memory, knowledge etc etc it all helps become a better player.

I'm wondering though, the title of the topic...regressing, its such a negative word. I'm not having a go at the title, but doesn't using such a negative word have a negative effect?

All I'm trying to say..and I'm having a hard time saying it ( can you tell?), is why not think of it as re-evaluating what you have done before. Someone famous once said that you learn from your mistakes- which is a good point- however I prefer the story of the scientist who had been looking for a formula to cure a disease, when he finally found it and was being interviewed, he was asked " It took you 201 attempts to find the cure, did doing the experiments 200 times without getting the right result dishearten you?" His reply was " No, I just learned how not to do it right 200 times".

So even when we're doing things "wrong" its still useful information. My own example of this is, as you've all seen from my videos, I have the baseball bat grip..approx 30 years of playing and now I know its wrong. I'm fixing it, and its hard, but I know that all the knowledge I have from 30 years of playing will serve me well in the changes I'm making, I'd much rather be in my position than someone who is coming to the guitar for the first time. My experiences will make it easier for me to change, as long as I'm in the right mindset.

To those of you who are re-evaluating, and may be seeing the negative sides at the moment, take a moment to think about what you've accomplished on the guitar over the years you have been playing, the songs you've learned, they styles you can play etc etc, now think of the changes you are making, think of all the changes you have made in the past, suddenly the new changes don't seem so big..that's my perspective on the changes.

Thanks

Joe


NKenny
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Mon Sep 28, 2009 7:50 am

Reading all this,well I guess I wasn't alone. I am having a very hard time breaking old habits. Trying to change hand position and metronome etc. is not easy. At times I felt like giving up because it seems impossible. But then I think when I first picked up a guitar it was the same way.


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neverfoundthetime
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Mon Sep 28, 2009 8:10 am

Here you go Joe, here's someone who can say it better that we can:

Many of life's failures are people who did not realize how close they were to success when they gave up.

Results! Why, man, I have gotten a lot of results. I know several thousand things that won't work.

I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work.

Hell, there are no rules here-- we're trying to accomplish something.

- Thomas A. Edison


ericj
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Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:18 am

Hi, Just joined target yesterday, interesting topic, Im sure it doent apply to me

I put the guitar down 20 years ago when I couldnt strum and sing Lucky Man correctly
This week I decided I wanted to learn how to play.

Being said, do you guy's feel that an absolute beginner will benefit more or have an easier time learning(Neil's way) do to the fact that there is nothing to un-learn

"Knowledge is a deadly friend when no one sets the rules." GL

eric


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