Oh that's wrong dude!

tovo
Posts: 0
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2009 4:35 pm
Status: Offline

Tue Apr 06, 2010 10:03 pm

That's a comment I often read, particularly on Youtube. Seems there is a school of thought that unless the cover is played like the original artist played it, with exactly the same fingerings, then it's wrong. I must confess, I always compare the original artist's fingerings with lessons I see, even with Neil. I hope I have been around long enough for the TG guys to understand I am not having a shot at anyone here, I'm just interested in people's thoughts. I DO tend to think; "I want to play it like Clapton does" even when it is very clear that an alternate fingering makes more sense in terms of setting up for the next change or promoting better hand position. The Clapton habit of using the thumb over comes to mind. Again, Neil explains why he prefers his alternate very clearly, and it makes sense. But my pea brain still nags at me whispering "I want to play it like Clapton does". (Yes I KNOW I'm not Clapton..and Clapton is just an example I'm using).

What do other people think?


TGMatt
Posts: 0
Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 3:14 pm
Status: Offline

Tue Apr 06, 2010 10:18 pm

Hey buddy

2 thoughts ..oh hang on..welcome back from the scrub mate

ok..


(1) you are playing it like Clapton if it is the same chords..but with better habits that will extend your ability into other areas..

(2) a lot of songs on uuuuutube are judged against the original, with no reference to the other instruments, or production that made it..Their are no songs from Clapton that doesn't have other players or himself multi tracking to make the total song..so the only way to go from their is to integrate melody, bass etc into the one piece..that is why it will never be the "same"..

Any way that's my off the top of head response..

Of course..you can always play it like Clapton for instance..just know you are re-enforcing a bad habit (one I bet he wishes he could repeal), and the lessons here are always a guide..play it however the hell you want..take what you want and add, modify etc...as long as we help move you forward with what ultimately is your hobby that is meant to bring you more joy..then that is all that really counts..(just think a little on the idea that bad habits re-enforced may bite that progress later on )

Any pics of the Black stump mate to share ?


unclewalt
Posts: 58
Joined: Sun May 31, 2009 11:14 am
Status: Offline

Tue Apr 06, 2010 10:25 pm

Hey, an actual topic for discussion. Refreshing. I hope I don't break any mysterious rules in my response.

Well, sometimes it IS wrong. On the other hand, YouTube commenters should generally be ignored anyway.

My take is like yours, but it depends on the tune. While you can certainly play something wrong, wrong doesn't just mean "not like the original." I find that oftentimes, I *can't* play something just like the original, even when I try. For instance I quickly learned "Hey Hey" over the past couple of days (still not quite there on the turnaround.) I'm not all that close to the original (Clapton or Big Bill), especially on the A and B chords. And on the main riff, I don't do the "brush" that Neil does in the lesson, I do a full-on pinch, using 2nd and 3rd, or 1st, 2nd and 3rd fingers on the high strings. On the A and B, I do a sort of brush with my thumb and a pinch of the higher strings.

On Bourree, on the other hand, you pretty much have to play it precisely, and doing it "different" *would* be wrong.

On "Landslide" I do a whole weird thing with the turnaround that's not much like the original, but it suits how I play and still sounds good. I guess it's wrong, but not really. (The chord shapes are right, and the notes, while different, are on key.)

But there are lots of tabs and videos out there that purport to be lessons, but they are completely wrong. I found a tab of "Hey Hey" a few days ago on a Tab Site That I Dare Not Name. It was utterly wrong, and yet the users gave it 5 stars. Luckily, the lesson was posted here the next day.

Neil's lesson for "Never Going Back Again" is technically "wrong." That was the vid I found on YouTube that originally led me to this site. All kinds of cranks on YouTube (does anyone else ever comment there?) were insisting that it was wrong, even after Neil explained why he did it that way. With that explanation in hand, it's 100 percent right.

I spent 30 years playing my way, not taking lessons or anything. I made little progress given all that time spent playing, but I also developed a "style" (I guess you would call it). So now that I'm learning more formally, I have to adapt everything to my style, or vice versa.

I've been playing "Don't Think Twice" for many years. I learned the chords and then started fingerpicking it (and lots of other songs) without ever having learned fingerpicking. There's no way I could ever learn to play it "right."


Lavallee
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2009 9:48 am
Status: Offline

Tue Apr 06, 2010 10:36 pm

It is a very good subject, Tony. I think comparing is the essence of learning, as it gives the motivation, at the level of students anyway. Wanting to play like the original covers at least 2 aspects: we aim at a reference point in progression and knowledge, it also fulfill the joy of replicating something that we realy like (the original song).

That said, there are often many ways to play the same thing. For me, it is important that the final result is very similar to the original , but it does not have to be played the same way. The key word is similar. If the level of a song is too high, I am all for compromise, until my level of playing improve and I would be ready to take the more advanced method.

Playing exactly like the original may also mean to take the bad habits of the musician which are not necessarely bad habit for him or her as the artists can express their talent with the method they learned (often by themselves). Does it mean we have to copy them exactly, I do not think so. A comparison could be in golf with Arnold Palmer who's fantastic talent came from a swing that nobody could ever reproduce without getting a hernia.

BTW, I find that most of the judging comments on Youtube are totally useless given by people that do not play as well as they say (this is an understatement), otherwise they would understand the work involved and appreciate the effort.


My 2 cents US/CDN (we are at par)

Marc


haoli25
Posts: 0
Joined: Thu Mar 12, 2009 7:06 am
Status: Offline

Tue Apr 06, 2010 10:38 pm

I'm with you Tony. The ultimate goal is for the song to SOUND right, not LOOK right. lol For the most part I do follow Neil's ideas for hand postion and chord shapes and the reasoning behind them make good sense. (most of the time) :) But on certain songs I will copy a bad habit if it is easier for me to play it that way and it still sounds good. Even on those songs I can't force myself to play a G chord or an A chord the old way, or the non-Neil way. :laugh:



Bill


beaker
Posts: 0
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2009 11:39 am
Status: Offline

Tue Apr 06, 2010 10:50 pm

Uncle Walt has it bang on. I like what he had to say and to tell you the truth I think Neil would agree as well ( can only speculate). Different does not mean wrong, Just different. Sometimes covers of songs are better than the original. Have you heard Clapton play Bob Dylan's "Positively 4th Street"? He can bring out melody than even Dylan could not do. (or he just chose not to on that day). there are so many examples of this.... I am a Deadhead So I am biased, but Jerry Garcia used to do versions of Dylan tunes, Reggae, Soul, American folk classics.... that are in many cases better than the originals (although they may be in a different key or tempo ... or different in other ways.... vocal phrasing...) My 2 cents.... also at par. Beaker.


unclewalt
Posts: 58
Joined: Sun May 31, 2009 11:14 am
Status: Offline

Tue Apr 06, 2010 10:51 pm

There's also the matter of simple creativity. On "Hey Hey," I've taken to occasionally replacing the slide from 2 to 7 with something different: I hit the B on the low E string and then roll up three frets on the A string, D, D#, E. Some people would no doubt object, but it's a simple change that sounds really cool, when varied with the slide. It's dum-dum-dum-dum, and into the riff. And I just started on another variation of the same part: B/C#/B/C# E. I don't know rhythmic notation, but it's da-da-da-da, da -- a pretty standard opening blues riff.


BigBear
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2009 11:02 am
Status: Offline

Tue Apr 06, 2010 10:52 pm

unclewalt wrote:
Hey, an actual topic for discussion. Refreshing. I hope I don't break any mysterious rules in my response.

Walt- are you getting a little paranoid on us? This place would be really boring if you didn't stir the pot occasionally! LOL!

Tony raises a good question. There are a couple more relevent schools of thought:

1. That we as guitarists, if we are just going to cover a song written and performed by someone else, have some level of obligation to play it as faithfully as we can to the original performance. This would be where most of us beginning to intermediates players should probably stay, at least initially.

2. Or that when we cover a song we didn't write or perform, we should try to make it our own. Infuse our own style or feel into it so that it isn't an exact copy. This might pertain to our more advanced players or others who have really mastered a song and because they have it mastered can venture out and try new techniques or approaches.

Neil "dumbing down" a song (for lack of a kinder expression!) to make it more playable is an example of this as is Mark's excellent renditions of Warm & Windy or 4+20. Both used the bones of a song to take it in another direction albeit opposite ones.

I think it's really difficult to think of something as subjective as music in terms of right or wrong. It just is.

And anyone who spends more than a millisecond worrying about any of the idiot commenters on YouTube needs to find a new song to worry about! :cheer:


unclewalt
Posts: 58
Joined: Sun May 31, 2009 11:14 am
Status: Offline

Tue Apr 06, 2010 10:53 pm

Dylan, in fact, is the very personification of the concept. He *always* plays his stuff "wrong." And it's his own stuff!

This can be tricky, though. Take my "Landslide" example above. I play the turnaround pretty differently from the original. But on the main riff (appreggio) , you pretty much have to play it precisely as written. If you changed the order of the notes at all, or strummed or pinched or something, that would be wrong -- not "wrong," but wrong.


AndyT
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2009 2:06 am
Status: Offline

Tue Apr 06, 2010 11:25 pm

I have some songs that I play "my way" simply because I like the way it sounds better than the original. Then there are songs that to my ear are just exactly correct the way they are and I want to replicate that as much as possible.

There is no right or wrong in music (with the exception of some lyrics). It's what and how you feel about the music that makes you play it a certain way. Ignore 99% of the youTube posters. They only post to make themselves feel better.


Post Reply Previous topicNext topic