Cat Stevens/Yusuf Islam in Concert

KennyF
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Jun 20, 2009 10:25 am
Status: Offline

Tue Jun 15, 2010 11:29 am

tovo wrote:
KennyF wrote:
Never liked him before...

And I like him even less now...
Which one...Bear, Chris or Dennis? ;)
No... I was referring to the subject of this topic... but you already knew that... B)


BigBear
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2009 11:02 am
Status: Offline

Tue Jun 15, 2010 5:14 pm

neverfoundthetime wrote:
Excuse me for completely agreeing with Dennis, Bear, but he's spot on about your list of politically loud artists. Gets some dumb-ass conservatives on that list too! :-) And I just love Susan Sarandon's idiot husband... and most of those lovely liberals you mention. Don't blame me, I'm living in a part of the world where Liberal isn't a swear word (blasphemy?!) so I just can't help it! ;-)
Chris- mon ami, no problem completely agreeing with Dennis, he's usually spot on!! But I'm not taking the bait on this one!! I'd love to debate this subject with you but not here. BTW- Can you name even one conservative performing artist who has used his fame to trash his country or president? I can't either. The conservatives are all in the Gulf making sure the troops are being properly thanked for their service.

All I will say about modern liberalism is it is a wonderful concept if the other guy gets to pay for it. Look at Greece, Portugal, Ireland, Hungary and Spain and the USA's obscene $13 trillion national debt for proof that while it's great to give everything to everyone that may need it in the name of being a passionate liberal someday there will be a reckoning. You can only print money and charge European-style taxes for so long. Someday the dike will burst!!

Enough said! Cheers! :cheer:


haoli25
Posts: 0
Joined: Thu Mar 12, 2009 7:06 am
Status: Offline

Tue Jun 15, 2010 5:23 pm

Rick, ever hear of Toby Keith or Ted Nugent? They have also said some pretty harsh things about our present anointed one. I wish ALL of them on both sides would keep their political views to themselves.


Bill


tovo
Posts: 0
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2009 4:35 pm
Status: Offline

Tue Jun 15, 2010 6:22 pm

haoli25 wrote:
I wish ALL of them on both sides would keep their political views to themselves.
Bill
I tend to agree with you Bill. I certainly don't think any entertainer's view is more important just because they have a following through their music. I also think it's not particularly smart marketing. By expressing strong political beliefs an artist is unavoidably going to isolate a percentage of his or her potential audience. So it's dumb from that point of view.

I remember U2 having live crosses to the Kosovo conflict during their concerts. I guess it's their choice to use their fame to express social conscience, but when I go to a rock concert...I'm only interested in the music.


Lavallee
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2009 9:48 am
Status: Offline

Tue Jun 15, 2010 6:43 pm

The reason why they give their political views during shows is because most of the attendance are teenagers and are easy to manipulate.

I remember in Quebec the separatist party seeing that the first referendum on the separation from Canada did not work out in their favor looked at the age of people voting yes. They realized they had more votes from the younger voters (normally because you do not have anything to loose at this age and anything you can do to upset the adults is always good, I was like that anyway). So the party tried to lower the age of voting to 16 years old.

This when I realized that no mater the political view, it is never for you but for them. I have since been against all politician and vote for the one that seems the less damaging at that time. So if an artist is trying to raise some political views to influence the voters, I know they are themselves manipulated by whatever side they are promoting.

Marc


pbraun
Posts: 0
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 6:00 pm
Status: Offline

Tue Jun 15, 2010 7:02 pm

You know it's music, jusy listen to the cds, lp whatever and we avoid all the political stuff. I enjoy the music, movies or whatever for that content, not what they are thinking. Cat Stevens wrote and still writes some great songs most that I can think didn't include his political views. Can't stand Sean Pean's views but many of his movies are pretty good, the rest I just block out.


dennisg
Posts: 0
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2009 10:34 am
Status: Offline

Wed Jun 16, 2010 12:58 pm

neverfoundthetime wrote:
Dennis, you put the points and in such a way that there is not much to argue with there. At the same time we have to be careful and not take Wikipedea to be 100% accurate and complete (I'm assuming that was your source here as the text and fact collection seem the same). Cat was not using his fame to put out a message at the time, he was cornered by journalists on the issue. I'm sure, of his volition, he'd have loved to have dodged the issue. So it's not equatable with a spouting, on-stage artist using his fame to get a message across.
Chris,

I wanted to wait a couple of days before responding, just to let the thermometer in this thread settle down.

I very much appreciate your point of view. It was calm and reasonable, and I'm glad you didn't feel the urge to hyperventilate. Sure, my source was Wikipedia. No, it's not always 100 percent accurate, but I have no reason to believe they botched the information regarding the Cat-tastrophe.

You mention that he was not using his fame to put out a message at the time. Truthfully, I couldn't care less what the context of his statements was -- only that he said what he said and believes what he believes. It wouldn't matter to me if he called a press conference or was blind-sided by a reporter or just happened to have written his opinion on the back of a package of Zig-Zag rolling papers. He thinks it's a peachy idea to kill a guy for his beliefs.

If I were a celebrity, you can damn well be sure that I'd be using my fame to promote the causes I believe in. After all, Bear, you, and I have used this forum to promote our own beliefs on the Cat Stevens issue. Does becoming a celebrity mean that you no longer have the right to express your opinion on things? They just have a larger audience than we at TG have. I don't fault them for that.


BigBear
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2009 11:02 am
Status: Offline

Wed Jun 16, 2010 2:06 pm

Dennis- I was with you right up until your last paragraph when you fell of the rails. You can't make an analogy between a casual discussion on a guitar forum and a celebrity using their celebrity, which I believe is a bully pulpit, to espouse crazy political ideas. Certainly, they have thr right to do so. The First Amendment gives all of us that right in this country.

But I don't want to hear their ridiculous views. As a broad generalization, I have never heard a group so poorly read and informed as performing artists. Most people this stupid would be rejected out of hand but because they have achieved some modicum of fame, they believe that we want to hear their views.

Most of their views are political. I stand by my original statement that most of them are liberal but there are a scant few conservatives who are idiots too. Regardless, I don't want to listen them. I could care less what Toby Keith or Senn Penn has to asy about the world or Barak Obama, George Bush or Hugo Chavez Frias!

And Yusaf Islam crossed the same line, only he did it for religious reasons. I don't need to know or care about his religous views or his support for a fatwa. But how is Yusaf's support of his religion any different than protesters carrying signs that said Kill Bush? Or making a movie about assassinating a sitting US President? I didn't hear the outrage from the left then? Either both are protected speech or neither is.

You and I will never be able to stop stupid people from saying stupid things. In this country they have that right, with very narrow exceptions like yelling "Fire" in a crowded theater. Many very brave men and women died to give stupid people the right to say stupid things. I carried a rifle for 4 years to defend that freedom.

So at the end of the day it really doesn't matter what Yusaf Islam said, didn't say, or meant. He supported his religion's historical punishment for blasphemy. You and I feel that is abhorrent. Unfortunately, all you can do is vote your pocketbook or complain about it on forums like this one. Or carry a protest sign.

I will never buy a Dixie Chick, or Bruce Springsteen CD or watch another Senn Penn movie despite him being a very good actor. That's my choice and the only real reply I can have to their political views. And I don't need to defend that choice to anyone. I know there are many people who disagree with me and will gladly support them. That's the way it's supposed to work. And there are many, many artists with whom I'm sure I disagree but they keep it to themselves. So I still support them.

I still believe that Yusaf Islam is a wonderful musician, who said some really stupid things that he probably believed at the time. Maybe he still does. I cannot hold Yusaf Islam accountable for fatwas or jihads, they are part of a much broader discussion of Islam. I'd love to debate that subject anytime.

If what Yusaf Islam said is unforgivable, don't buy his music, play his songs or listen to his music. If you can seperate the man from the message then by all means enjoy the beautiful music he has brought to the world. But I repeat that he has done much good for the underprivleged of the world. He should be given credit for this on balance.

Are we judging Yusaf Islam or Islam in general? I still love Cat Steven's music!! :cheer:


dennisg
Posts: 0
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2009 10:34 am
Status: Offline

Wed Jun 16, 2010 3:25 pm

I think this would be the right time to end this thread.


BigBear
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2009 11:02 am
Status: Offline

Wed Jun 16, 2010 4:31 pm

dennisg wrote:
I think this would be the right time to end this thread.
It's too bad we don't have a political thread! These debates are really fun but don't belong on a guitar forum. I got in trouble on a concealed carry handgun forum for debating with another guy about anarcho-capitalism versus government control of the free market! It was fascinating but people were chiming in and asking "what in the hell are you two talking about?". We had to take the debate to a camping and shooting forum. It was fun and I learned a lot!

Take care Dennis and thanks for the "food for thought". It's always great to debate with you! You always have my complete respect!

Cheers! :cheer:


Post Reply Previous topicNext topic