To sing or not to sing- that is the question

tovo
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Fri Jul 30, 2010 4:33 pm

My boss likes to say "it doesn't need to be this OR that, it can be this AND that". I think that applies really well to this discussion which is a good one.


mcfingers
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Fri Jul 30, 2010 4:39 pm

Suzi and the rest, It seems to me that the question as to whether or not you will get feedback on your singing rather than your playing is an easy one to remedy. Just include in your post what kind of feedback you are specifically or generally looking for.

example; I posted this video knowing that the singing is really rough. However, it helped me to more fully express the feeling of the song. Please, provide any feedback that you think relevant to my playing. Thanks.

Tah Dah. Now you get the specific feedback that you wanted in the first place.


Cheers, Steve

P.S. To your point about enjoying singing. I have several musician friends that have very mediocre singing voices. But they have so much enthusiasm for the songs they sing it is down right infectious watching them have such a good time singing.

Songs are also about the words. I am thinking of the recently posted Glee "Imagine" song. Would that clip be any less powerful if the hearing singers weren't there? Not to me.


dennisg
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Fri Jul 30, 2010 4:50 pm

Steve,

I went back and watched Neil's review of Circle Game and noticed that all of his comments were related to the singing. So maybe you're right. Maybe, on a song that features singing, we need to remind Neil that we're also looking for feedback on the guitar playing.


michelew
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Fri Jul 30, 2010 10:29 pm

Suzi, Personally I think you got it just right on Circle Game. But, I think you should do whatever feels right at the time.

As suggested, if you're looking for feedback on one aspect of your performance in particular let us know and we'll be sure to concentrate on that to the best of our abilities. Me... well it's likely to be along the 'woo hoo!' lines if my previous comments on your videos are any indication. I love your posts in all their permeations. I love your singing. I love your playing. I love your enthusiasm and the way you set out to challenge yourself and invariably get there or at least make fabulous progress.

Specifying whether and what you'd like advice on is something I should be clear about too. When I posted 'Bring on the Wonder' I was actually debuting my singing on camera effort 'warts and all'. I had left the playing simple so that I had the best chance of singing without upsetting my playing. I was pretty happy with my first attempt in the scheme of things - emotional vibrato and all. As it happens Neil reviewed it (which makes sense as I'd posted it in the Student Review Channel). The feedback was really useful and I know others like yourself also learned from it. However, I must admit that at first I felt like 'oops - I was meaning to introduce my singing not seek feedback on my playing so much'. So given that was my original intention I could have provided more guidance on that. Regardless, it was great getting a response from Neil and as I said I found it useful, so I guess I'd have lost out on that opportunity to learn and grow if I'd say 'just focus on my signing'. I'm probably giving mixed messages here...

I'm not sure when I'll post another singing video. I'm working on strumming songs now so chances are it may be the next one, depending of course on how well I have the song down and how confident I'm feeling.

I vote for you singing part of your next song (at least) and letting us know what you're looking for regarding our focus. I think that if you intend to sing and play it is good to include both in your video because they affect each other. But, go with your gut.

Interesting thread.

Michele


Hydroman52
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Sat Jul 31, 2010 5:38 am

Good thread and all good comments here. I like to see both singing and playing. However, it would be interesting to see Jim Bruno do a video comment on someone’s singing similar to the way Neil comments on the guitar playing (maybe it’s already been done and I missed it?). Perhaps it could be a collaboration of commenting where Neil gives his remarks on the guitar and then Jim on the singing. I know it’s a lot of work for the guys behind the scenes, and it couldn’t be done all the time, but it sure would be a good learning experience to know what Jim’s advice would be in addition to Neil’s.

This site seems to be evolving into an "everything involved with guitars" with the focus remaining on the guitar. That's good in my book, as long as the the main theme isn't lost or blurred too much. Could you imagine a site so focused as to be called "TotallyTriangles" (more triangle, please) that would ignore the interaction with the rest of the orchestra? Okay, maybe that isn't such a great example . . . . .

Personally, I prefer playing guitar while someone else sings. But I will sing or hum along out of desperation in order to get the rhythm close and with only the dog for an audience. I would much rather attempt to sing harmony if there is a need for it than lead. My main interest is not in singing, however, I realize that in understanding the singer's craft, I can do a better job of enhancing both of our efforts. Therefore, I am interested in learning about singing.

Hope that all makes sense.

Hydroman52


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neverfoundthetime
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Sat Jul 31, 2010 11:06 am

I'd like to recommend you sing on your songs when you want to Susi and direct the feedback to your playing as Steve suggested. I liked the way you did circle game; without then with vocals. I also thought Neil did give you feedback on your playing. He said it was fabulous, great control great variety, you got it etc. Praise indeed! But I could tell you were disappointed somehow in your posted reply. Did you just blend out Neil's positive comments on your playing because you were expecting some other more critical comment? Did you feel the comments were superficial and you wanted something much more specific? Higher level? He did say you need to get the playing more sub-conscious (automatic)and get it more balanced. I'm a little confused on that and on Dennis' comment that all the feedback was on the singing. Is this a perception thing? Not a big issue, just a bit perplexing.

Generally on singing, if there's no singing then the melody is missing unless it's being mixed in as Neil has shown us on some songs. If there's no melody what does the brain follow? The brain then plays the melody for us (if it knows the song). I don't feel that singing will distract. When you listen to a song you follow different things jumping from melody (voice) to accompaniment and embellishments. You tend to listen to different things each time you listen to the same recording and hear more as your focus changes and picks up more. I don't think anyone has a problem directing their focus when they give their feedback on the student videos.

Keep singing girl!


suziko
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Sat Jul 31, 2010 11:47 am

Chris,

Thanks for your reply. I thought Neil's feedback on my singing was very helpful in many ways. He's right that it is one thing to be able to play a song correctly w/o singing, and quite another to have it to a state where you can play it automatically and thus be able to sing simultaneously. I also thought his comment regarding how the melody in the music might not match the melody in the singing (you often play one note, and sing another), and how THAT can be distracting when you're playing, was very helpful.


I admit that I was initially surprised that Neil focused so much of his review on singing advice, because my intention in posting the video was to get feedback on my guitar playing. I'm at TG to get better at playing guitar primarily; as much as I would like to be a better singer, that has always been my secondary goal here. I appreciate very much that he, and others, seemed to think I played it well. I understand that I'm probably my own harshest critic. However, I have a hard time believing that I played it SO PERFECTLY that there's nothing concrete that could be said about it, ways to improve it, for example. There are plenty of far more accomplished guitarists on this site to whom Neil is still able to give constructive advice regarding their playing.


That said, I am sincerely grateful that Neil took the time to respond to one of my videos. I did not start this thread to complain in an under-handed way about my response video from Neil, and I apologize if it seems like that was the intention. My intentions were: 1. on a personal level, to try to use you guys as a sounding-board to figure out how I felt about the issue of singing in videos on TG and whether or not I felt it detracted from what my real goal is here at TG (to get feedback on guitar playing) and 2. to discuss the issue on a more general level; to hear why you choose to sing in your videos, or why you do not sing, what you feel about other people singing, whether you think it makes it difficult to judge a person's playing, whether it heightens your enjoyment of the video, etc.


dekotaj
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Sat Jul 31, 2010 11:54 am

HEY SUZI,

Having people sing in there videos dose not hamper me in seeing how well people play the guitar parts of the song.So for me if theirs lyrics and you want to sing,by all means sing them.I would enjoy hearing everyone sing there songs.Everyone but me,I just stick to humming them.LOL.And for a lazy guitarist like me it helps me to keep it some what in time.

Kevin


michelew
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Sat Jul 31, 2010 9:09 pm

Suzi,

For me it is purely a confidence thing; confidence in my singing ability and confidence in my ability to play in front of a camera while singing without screwing it up.

Can you remember the first response you made to a very early thread of mine? I was trying to pluck up the courage to perform 'Blackbird' and found that I was a nervous wreck on camera. I think my ability to play in front of a camera and in general has sky rocketed since then. It's all been down to this very supportive community and the great advice I've received from Neil and so many of you. Well, I'm hoping that one day my ability to play and sing without being hugely nervous will also develop, once I do it more of course.

I also haven't sung much because many of the pieces I've played have either been instruments or were just too complex for my brain to be able to spare enough processing capacity to allow singing. Here Comes the Sun is an example of the latter.

So in short, I would like to sing more and intend to do it more as time goes on, that includes in my videos too.

Michele


suziko
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Sat Jul 31, 2010 9:34 pm

Thanks, again, to everyone for their thoughtful responses.

Kevin- if I can sing, I'm sure you can too. One of my daughter's favorite movies is the Pixar film "Ratatouille" in which the famous chef's theme is "Everyone Can Cook!" Maybe we need to believe that "Everyone Can Sing!"

Michele- I do remember that. And you have inspired me so much along the way of this journey. Heck, you inspired me to show my face on video! You're right that so much of what we're dealing with are issues of self-confidence (or lack thereof). And I know that the only way I'm going to become more confident about my playing and my singing is to just keep doing it. And I'm grateful to have so many good friends at TG to help me along the way.


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