To sing or not to sing- that is the question

suziko
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Fri Jul 30, 2010 8:01 am

Tony's recent thread on how we choose songs to post on TG and a recent response video I got from Neil got me thinking about the issue of singing in our videos. When I first joined TG, almost no one sang on their videos. Then the pendulum swung in the other direction and now almost everyone does. I have very much enjoyed seeing (and hearing) my fellow Target members come out of the singing closet, and there's no doubt that singing can greatly heighten the pleasure of watching certain songs being performed. This is especially the case with simple strummers or repetitive finger picking tunes. These songs aren't meant to stand alone in the way that an instrumental, such as Windy and Warm, is meant to do.

When we sing, the attention of the viewer almost invariably goes to the singing. This isn't necessarily a problem. Some people might post a "singing" song because they like to sing, have a good voice, or just can't imagine playing a guitar song without singing (or other reasons). And those people might be posting a song with singing because they want feedback on their singing.

The issue arose in my mind because my primary goal for posting videos on TG has been to garner feedback specifically on my guitar playing. It's not that I'm not interested in improving my singing (I recently started taking voice lessons, and have greatly enjoyed the instructional videos provided by our TG voice coach, Jim Bruno. I've also very much appreciated the feedback and support I've received from fellow TG members and Neil on my singing), but I'm at TG to improve my guitar playing above anything else.

I recently started working on Eva Cassidy's Fields of Gold and for the past few days I've been mulling over whether or not I want to try to sing when (if!) I post it. On the one hand, the guitar part is very much an accompaniment to the singing and, standing on its own, could get a bit boring for a viewer to listen to. On the other hand, if I sing in it, I'm afraid that the technical improvements I feel I've made, and which I'm hoping to demonstrate to my viewers, will get drowned out by my singing.

So, what do you all think about the issue of singing in videos? I realize there isn't one "right" answer to this ("No one should sing!" or "Everyone should sing!"). Rather, I'm wondering how you all decide whether or not to sing, if you prefer when people sing in their videos, if you feel it hampers your ability to really hear what the guitarist is playing (and thus making it difficult to offer feedback/suggestions), etc.


Lavallee
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Fri Jul 30, 2010 8:27 am

Hi Suzi, I think that anybody who wants to sing is welcome as it is a natural accompaniment of guitar playing. You had the right approach in your Circle game video where you played instrumental only first then you sang, having less pressure for the guitar playing in the first part.

Being a step up over playing only, I think it improve guitar playing if you can sing at the same time because it implies that you are in full control of the song. If I could sing half decently I would. I tried on a couple videos, but the others condos signed a petition asking to stop, thinking I was torturing animals. This is why I only focused on instrumental and I envy all of you singers and I hope it will continue.

Marc


MarkM
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Fri Jul 30, 2010 8:40 am

Suzi good question. I ask myself this question everytime I get ready with a song. I look at this a couple of different ways. When I was looking for feedback on George Harrison's Isn't it a Pity and Run of the Mill (neither of which was a target song at the time) I really wanted to show what I was doing on the guitar. I wanted to find out if I was in the ball park on the chords and was the strum pattern in line. Therefore I didn't want to muddy it up with singing. I've done that a few other times when I'm fairly new to a song. Friend of the Devil comes to mind. Those times I really wanted to show the degree of what my ability was on that song at that given time. As I got better with some songs from a playing perspective I would at first sing a seperate track after the fact to see if I could add more to the song. As you stated, some songs just project better when there are vocals. That was a big step for me and it's something that I'm trying to get better at. From there if the song is easy for me to play, like the last one, I would try and sing it at the same time. Still on two different tracks with two seperate mics. Someday I hope to get to a point where I know how to use my voice (or lack there of) and apply it to a song to make it more of my own instead of trying to sound like the original. With all that said I still believe, as you, that this site is primarily a place to better one's guitar skills. I'm sure I'll still put songs out there for review that will try and show learning a new skill (fingerpicking for me) with no singing. Other songs that really need the vocals I'll either try and muddle through it myself or ask another member to add their vocals to better show off the song. I do however like to watch and listen to the videos that show the playing and singing as it inspires me to do better myself.


MarkM


dennisg
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Fri Jul 30, 2010 10:02 am

You know, I suppose someone could make the case that, since the name of this site is TotallyGuitars.com, we should be focusing on nothing other than playing the guitar. But I don't feel that way. As this site has matured, part of its benefit has been to give people confidence in performing in front of other people. One thing I've noticed from chatting with people on this site is how little confidence most people have in their own singing. I've seen people like Michele and MarkM and Suzi (and others), people to whom singing in public is a frightening thought, confront their fear and put out songs (guitar and voice) that are really impressive. So, in that context alone, I think there's tremendous value in confronting your own terror about singing and working past those fears.

As for me, if I thought that a song I'm singing on would be reviewed entirely on the quality of my singing, I wouldn't submit it, because I'm not here just to get reviewed on my voice.

What I would hate to see is for videos to be reviewed (either by Neil or anyone else) solely on the basis of singing -- at the expense of the guitar playing. I'd like to receive comments on everything about my performance that can be improved -- whether it's my guitar playing, my singing, the way I tap my foot, or the angle at which the camera is set.


willem
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Fri Jul 30, 2010 10:34 am

Suzy,,i just have an idea,,,when you master a song totally on guitar,then you record that(you have then alway's a vid from your guitar playing),,after that try to sing along with you own recording and record that to with ''audicity'',,if you are pleased with it(or not) you can alway's chose witch one you upload to get the comments you want..


BigBear
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Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:58 am

Suzi- that is a really a terrific question. I think the basic question is, do we play songs or perform songs?

Very few of the TARGET songs can stand on their own as instrumental pieces. Maybe the level 7 and above. Neil is a true instrumentalist and all of his playing, even on simple songs can stand on their own. But most of the rest of us aren't so fortunate.

As someone who is vocally challenged, I am always delighted to hear my fellow TGer's sing, even if they aren't very adept. And some are really good! But like you suggest, the vocals do detract from the guitar work.

There is no question that playing and singing is incredibly more difficult than just playing. So I'm thinking that for posting Student Review videos maybe they should be just the guitar work only; since that's the whole point of a guitar site.

But there also should be a vehicle for performing the song ie with vocals. Maybe that could be the Member Video channel that I was advocating under another thread.

Matt, are you listening? LOL! Another justification for a seperate "performance" channel if you will! Maybe the natural progression is to learn the song, post the song for student review and feedback frrom Neil, then post the song with vocals in the performance channel for fun and entertainment. This would be for TARGET songs only. All other songs could go directly to the performance channel.

We could all have our cake and eat it too!!

Cheers! :cheer:


tovo
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Fri Jul 30, 2010 3:25 pm

Suzi great question and an interesting topic.

I feel like my playing should always remain the focus as it needs a lot of work, I'm up for that and take feedback really seriously. How many people out there get feedback from multiple people (as well as from a seriously good teacher in Neil) in order to help them improve? The support on TG I feel has helped me improve far quicker than I otherwise could have.

I really like to sing and often do, but I have sometimes chosen not to sing in order to keep the focus squarely on the guitar.

I often think about the maturation of the site as you spoke about. Remember when people didn't ever show their face? I think that progression and people stepping up to the plate to have a crack at singing is great. No singing would suck (not that you suggested that at all in fact you made it very clear you are not suggesting that).

I think it is a decision you need to make. I think the way you recorded circle game was great, Neil even commented on that aspect, that you played it through once without vocals. I thought that was a good solution.


suziko
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Fri Jul 30, 2010 3:38 pm

Firstly, thanks to everyone for their thoughtful responses.

I do not think there is one solution that is going to suit everyone regarding this matter. We all have different goals when posting a video and we also all take different things out of the videos from other Target members that we decide to watch and comment on.

This has been such a conundrum for me in part because singing is such a challenge. It's not something that is easy for me to do and it elevates the stress level tenfold when recording a video. That said, I'm not one to shy away from things because they're challenging; in fact, I tend to prefer to confront those things head-on. I felt good about pushing myself WAY outside my comfort zone by singing in 2 of my videos.

Still, I think singing by its nature is a bit of an attention hog. I'm not saying that the singer is an attention hog but that for some reason singing itself draws our attention far more than playing does. Probably because humans are verbal creatures, and we're innately drawn to words and speech. So if I choose to sing, I have to accept that most likely people aren't going to pay attention to what I'm playing as closely as they would have had I just shut up!

We'll see what I decide to do with Fields of Gold (again, assuming I even post it), but one solution seems to be to do something similar to what I did in Circle Game: sing some, play some, and (above all) try to keep it short and sweet.


mcfingers
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Fri Jul 30, 2010 3:55 pm

I don't want to make this a long response soooo, I think there are valid points being made about singing drawing attention. This is not "Idol" so no one is expecting perfect pitch. However, IMO, I think that the act of singing and playing is part of the skill of learning guitar. Not everyone can or wants to sing. But, there is so much to be gained by combining the two. Timing, confidence, the joy of finally getting it down. I would hate to see us limit ourselves by omitting signing because it might not be up to par with the playing. That's the point, working hard to get it up to par. I am probably not making my point very well but I hope you can see were I'm trying to get.
Already too long,

Suzi, Sing it girl, sing it. :)


suziko
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Fri Jul 30, 2010 4:06 pm

Actually, I think you made your point really well. Guitar playing and singing seem so intrinsically linked. And I think most of us find a lot of joy in singing, once we're able to get past our self-doubt.

I just don't want it to be that if I sing in a video, I only get feedback on my singing when I really want feedback on my playing! And since I can't micro-manage everyone's comments (as much as the control-freak in me may like to!) it seems like the natural way to get people to respond to my playing is to take away the attention-hogging element: singing.

But, again, maybe finding a middle ground is the best approach for me. Sing some, play some, and just appreciate any comments I do get, regardless of their content.


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