Same tune - Different fingering. Does it matter?

tovo
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Wed Oct 20, 2010 8:25 pm

Ok this one is a really big topic I think. I hope it generates some opinion and discussion. It will take me a bit to get to the point I think. (sorry).

So by way of example, at the moment I am learning "The Scientist" by Coldplay. Love the tune. I am playing it with D7, Bbmaj, Fmaj, Fsus2,C/Fmaj, Cmaj and G/Cmaj. Some challenging chords there although mainly 1st position. It sounds very right to my ears. Those who know the tune know it's a piano led tune but it lends itself really well to acoustic guitar.

Check Youtube though and you will find 10 or more ways to play it. Some entirely with open chords, some with barres up the neck, different keys etc etc. No surprises there of course.

So my question is, when you aren't following a Target tune and using Neil's suggested fingerings, how do you decide which fingering you will use? I know from my own perspective improving my barre chords has significantly opened up my options and I can now chose more "convenient" changes, often preferring to use barres over open chords.

I often read comments saying "oh man that's WRONG" (On Youtube not here) So just like we should all try harder to transcribe from ear, should we be working out fingerings ourselves? From watching a lot of Neil's lessons his suggested fingerings are based on what is most logical for the next change. Should that be the key criteria?

OK, I suspect a lot of people will leave this alone thinking "My theory isn't strong enough to answer this". Don't worry about that, give your opinion.


dennisg
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Wed Oct 20, 2010 8:51 pm

For a song that was originally recorded with a guitar, I generally try to emulate what the artist was doing. If he was playing open chords, I'll try to do it the same way; if she was playing barre chords...well, you get the idea.

But for a song that was originally recorded using an instrument (piano, for example) other than guitar, I try to apply these two guiding principles:

1) Play whatever fingerings sound the best and/or...
2) Play whatever fingerings are most efficient. If I'm playing a song in G, and I'm generally using open chords, it doesn't make sense to take a long hike up the neck and barre a C chord, then traipse back down the neck to play an open D.


tovo
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Wed Oct 20, 2010 9:03 pm

Sounds good Dennis. But is another option to play the G, C and D all as barres? The change from G to C is easy and then just a step up. I do think there is a slight difference in sound between an open C and a barre (perhaps my imagination?) but I guess it comes down to whatever you are comfortable with in the end?


wrench
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Wed Oct 20, 2010 9:08 pm

Hmmmm. Your questions are getting harder.

My short answer is fundamentals. Music Theory and Neil's Beginner Lessons. When you know what you are doing and why you are doing it, you can play whatever you want and however you want to play it. Alright, I know that didn't make much sense, so I'll say it like this. I had the pleasure of spending three days in the music workshops of all my favorite artists, and I can say this with absolute certainty: everything they write is in the language of Music Theory and their method of play is all about economy of motion. Dude, if it weren't for Acoustic Genius, they might as well been speaking Klingon.

So if you have your own interpretation of "The Scientist" played in some manner determined with intelligent musical criteria, then I say "BRAVO!" I'd like to hear it.

What's the point in playing a song exactly like someone else?


mark
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Thu Oct 21, 2010 5:25 am

I think it varies from song to song.

What fingering to use will come down to a bit of experimenting and deciding what works best.
As you said it normally depends on what came before and what is coming up.

Unless you want to play it exactly like the original, there is no right or wrong answer.
It comes down to whatever works best for you.


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neverfoundthetime
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Thu Oct 21, 2010 5:59 am

Cold play is cool Tony and it is a challenge to find a way of reproducing the piano based sound.
For me it's all about the sound and here I like open chords more than barre chords. I almost never barre a G, certainly never a C although I do often barre Bm, Cm,C#m Fm, Gm. Maybe this is because of the 12 strings which are harder to barre than 6 and I don't like dumpf (I know it's not a word but that's how it sounds!)sounding strings. But then ease of play kicks in too. Songs with a base of C F G, I always play with the wrap-around thumb because it's quicker so I don't barre the F. Something else: Suzie mentioned she was playing American Pie with 12 chords... I was using about 8. I simplify when it makes sense such as getting better flow or simply to be able to remember the sequence!

Dan: Which favourite artists did you learn from?


willem
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Thu Oct 21, 2010 6:28 am

Tony,,i think this as not so much to do with theory,,well you have to know were you can find all of these chords, only when you try to subscribe by ear and find out whitch key it's written and can say hey this are the chords we can use in this song(that's all the theory i think),,and where you play them that's a kind of logic first but they have to sound good,when i play a B (second position) i can't get it good,if i play it on the seventh position then i'm happy,but when i come from a open D (OR Dm) i have to run!!!! so for the logic i would try the D on the fifth,then the B,,but all the open chords sound so satisfied..goodluck on Cold play..


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jcrocket
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Thu Oct 21, 2010 7:22 am

Tony -

First of all, great song choice! Can't wait to hear your rendition.

My first impulse is always to try and play a song in the same key and with the same chords as the original. I enjoy playing along with recordings, and find that it's my most effective way of learning - and I obviously can't do that if I'm playing in a different key.

That being said, due to my limited vocal range, I find that I sometimes have to drop a song down a few steps (or raise it up a few steps, then drop the vocals a full octave) to have a chance at singing it.

As far as specific fingerings, I'll sometimes experiment with different fingerings of chords and see how it changes the "feel" of a certain phrase. Or sometimes, I'll make a change for comfort purposes. When I play songs that call for all or mostly all barre chords, I find I have to throw in some open fingerings or my left hand gets very sore (Lay Lady Lay comes to mind).

Sometimes it's just fun to put a different "spin" on a song, varying the key, speed, and/or style. Usually it ends up sounding ridiculous, but sometimes you come up with something that sounds kind of cool.

Another great thread, Tony. So many of your topics really stimulate healthy self-analysis.

Jeff


wrench
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Thu Oct 21, 2010 7:41 am

neverfoundthetime wrote:
Dan: Which favourite artists did you learn from?
I had conversations with some of the Candyrat folks such as Antoine Dufour, Craig D'Andrea, Ray Montford, Jimmy Wahlsteen, Andrew White, Don Ross, Gareth Pearson, and a few others. There were so many, and they were mostly very pleasant to speak music with. There were formal workshops with Kelly Valleau, Matthew Woodward (a Canadian rock-n-roller for about 30 years), and the surprise event of a songwriting workshop with Don Ross. All three workshops were spoken in fluent Music Theory.

Don Ross also performed about 4 hours over the weekend and mingled with folks non-stop from Friday night to Sunday night. He is a magnificent person as well as a magnificent artist and a true lifelong student of music. If you ever get a chance to go see him, you will get so much more than just a performance. Much of his schedule is in Europe.

Learning to write music from Don Ross was a definite game-changer.


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neverfoundthetime
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Thu Oct 21, 2010 8:06 am

Dan, you really don't mess around when you are interested in something! Thanks for the info sounded really cool.


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