Did They Know Theory: Robert Johnson, Eric Clapton, Don Felder etc etc and Tom Petty

Chasplaya
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Mon Dec 13, 2010 12:23 pm

A question to ponder... Did many of our acclaimed music heroes understand, know or even apply music theory ? Or did they stumble across a good sound by accident or experiment. A recent query about The Eagles and Tequila Sunrise raised this question with me, they have that small change up to 16th notes in the intro with the hammer on and then in the last verse they use chords from another key. Was this by accident or did they know what they were doing?

I often wonder about many of these musicians who were self taught to begin with and learned from listening to vinyl records, Don Felder and Eric Clapton to name a couple of notables. Did Robert Johnson know theory and apply it?

From time to time one of these acclaimed musicians (not just those mentioned) have done something different or unusual and over time it becomes 'accepted theory'. It must be ok these guys did it!

So what do you guys think? Do we really need theory? Is it all about a pleasing sound irrespective of musical correctness?

Did they know, understand and apply theory? Or was it sometimes just trial and error and good luck?


willem
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Mon Dec 13, 2010 12:51 pm

DO WE NEED THEORY..??

I think we need it,,but what we do with it, we want to cover songs and i start 7 years ago to try this,, i need a song book(written out) and play and understand the melody helps me a lot,,the same with acompaniment and i have to find the frets and notes,,knowing this by theory i find them easer/quicker..i respect them much who do this by ear,,

ps knowing what is 4/4 or 3/4 or 12/8 or 6/8 ,, maybe we don't need so much,,maybe i wish i could without it..


wrench
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Mon Dec 13, 2010 1:24 pm

I think a tip-off that an artist knows theory is the number of quality tunes he composes. A writer who knows theory MAKES music. The writer who does not know theory FINDS music, and is less likely to do it as often as a writer with theory skills. Based on this, I would expect Eric Clapton knows theory pretty well.

I had the pleasure and good fortune to spend three days last summer in the company of artists who make music, and I didn't hear a random lucky note in the whole of three days and nights of performances, competitions, and jams. These guys speak fluent music theory, and compose to very rigid standards - surprisingly rigid standards. I attended three workshops and all three were all theory - theory - theory.

I am certain there are some lucky successes out there, but for a musician in control his destiny, my money's on theory.


Chasplaya
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Mon Dec 13, 2010 1:32 pm

willem wrote:
DO WE NEED THEORY..??

I think we need it,,but what we do with it, we want to cover songs and i start 7 years ago to try this,, i need a song book(written out) and play and understand the melody helps me a lot,,the same with acompaniment and i have to find the frets and notes,,knowing this by theory i find them easer/quicker..i respect them much who do this by ear,,

ps knowing what is 4/4 or 3/4 or 12/8 or 6/8 ,, maybe we don't need so much,,maybe i wish i could without it..
Hi Willem quick response mate, but more than whether we need theory, I for one have undoubtedly got better with improving my theory knowledge, but did our Guitar heroes always understand it and apply it, e.g. Did Clapton purposefully start 'Layla' in D play the solo in D minor pentatonic then do the verses in E, or was that all just purely by chance? This is but one example, and raises the question did they know apply and understand Theory or was it sometimes luck?


willem
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Mon Dec 13, 2010 1:41 pm

Chasplaya wrote:
willem wrote:
DO WE NEED THEORY..??

I think we need it,,but what we do with it, we want to cover songs and i start 7 years ago to try this,, i need a song book(written out) and play and understand the melody helps me a lot,,the same with acompaniment and i have to find the frets and notes,,knowing this by theory i find them easer/quicker..i respect them much who do this by ear,,

ps knowing what is 4/4 or 3/4 or 12/8 or 6/8 ,, maybe we don't need so much,,maybe i wish i could without it..
Hi Willem quick response mate, but more than whether we need theory, I for one have undoubtedly got better with improving my theory knowledge, but did our Guitar heroes always understand it and apply it, e.g. Did Clapton purposefully start 'Layla' in D play the solo in D minor pentatonic then do the verses in E, or was that all just purely by chance? This is but one example, and raises the question did they know apply and understand Theory or was it sometimes luck?

Well they were all in music scene and jammed a LOT,,they learn each other then and with that kind of knowledge they wrote there own songs and listen to the sound they produce,,just noodling??? A lot of E chord in Clapton's music?? his signature??


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neverfoundthetime
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Mon Dec 13, 2010 2:57 pm

Images of a monkey, a typewriter, infinite time and Shakespeare come to mind. Although that doesn't quite fit here as you can noodle around on a guitar and make sense of some sounds and chord sequences that just sound right or "fit". I'm sure a lot can be done this way but the more sophisticated knowledge a composer has, the more sophisticated the songs can/will be. the Beatles' early works were all simple in structure and their work became more complex as they grew in ability and knowledge. George Martin mentions that they were very raw when he met them but learned fast. In order to understand how they composed he was tryed to learn play the guitar but they (John and Paul) learned piano faster although he was musically trained and the weren't. So Lennon & McCartney started out with a very hit and miss writing style but obviously learned a lot of theory on the way. I'm sure that a greater knowledge of theory = better and more sophisticated composing in Pop and rock as in any music.

On the other hand, we'd never have had the Beatles (or any of the 60's groups) if they had started off in a music academy. Rough to smooth works but I don't think it could ever have worked the other way around.


Chasplaya
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Tue Dec 14, 2010 12:27 am

neverfoundthetime wrote:
Rough to smooth works but I don't think it could ever have worked the other way around.
I just knew you'd like a bit of rough!! Lol.

In all seriousness though I tend to agree, the rough start was where many musicians earned their stripes and maybe established their sound


thereshopeyet
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Thu Apr 09, 2020 3:00 pm

Neil

Chris posted this topic yesterday .......... 9 years and 4 months ago :dry: :ohmy:

In Tequila Sunrise, the three borrowed chords in the second bridge appear to come from the Key of E Major.

They are not from G's Parallel Key Gm, or G's Relative Minor Key of Em.

So what's the connection between the Key of G, to borrow chords form the Key of E ?


Heres a couple off great links::

Tequila Sunrise Collaboration



Tequila Sunrise Lead and Other Leads



Dermot


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