CAPO,,in tune out tune..

wrench
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Sun Dec 19, 2010 6:26 pm

Neil - Thanks for commenting. I now know you are in a very small minority of music professionals knowledgeable in the physics. In the last year, I met about 200 artists and music store operators. None of them were interested at all in the science of the instruments. My favorite store owner was fascinated, but not really interested.

Chas - My first fret job looked something like that ! :blink: I might check these necks out. Their fret theories may prove out OK, and they are aware of string variables, as they recommend certain strings. But I believe if you deviate from their string specs, these necks will also go out of tune.

Willem - Your headstock tuner reminds me of a comment Keith Holland made. He warned of tone changes by increasing the mass on the headstock by using heavier tuning machines. But in an earlier video, he recommended the use of a headstock tuner. So, do you notice a change in tone when a tuner is clamped to your headstock? Thank you for asking technical questions, as I really enjoy the technology of guitar as much as I love the music they make. Sorry to hijack your thread, though.

Bear - I made the same assumption about stretching the string over the fret, but that turns out to be only one of many variables - and not even the most important one. That assumption went out the window pretty fast! I never built a watch, but I built a car before I got my driver's license, and I built a computer shortly after getting my first calculator. And then there's the research i did when I started dating girls! :blush:

Stuart (and Bear again) - Another surprise finding for me was that the pitch error was the same whether the capo was right up against the fret or half way between them. Closer to the fret is more damaging to the string and the fret, however. I used to capo close to the fret, but based on what I saw, I'm going to start placing the capo further away. Weighing clean notes, fret damage, string damage, and fretboard damage, this looks like about a quarter inch behind the fret. Stuart, yes, there will be intonation issues up the neck after the capo is installed because intonation is based on the scale length then each string is compensated. With a capo in place, the scale length is shorter, and the compensation is no longer valid. The b string is the worst because it requires the most compensation.

Dave - What Chris said.

Chris - how far from the fret did you place your capo?


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TGNeil
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Sun Dec 19, 2010 7:45 pm

So Dan-

Why do we not notice intonation problems when we barre a fret?

Random fodder...

Neil


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neverfoundthetime
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Sun Dec 19, 2010 7:51 pm

Chris - how far from the fret did you place your capo?
...about 3 - 4 mm.


wrench
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Sun Dec 19, 2010 8:00 pm

TGNeil wrote:
So Dan-

Why do we not notice intonation problems when we barre a fret?

Random fodder...

Neil
Because we're not listening for it. It is very much there. Good question, though.


wrench
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Sun Dec 19, 2010 8:08 pm

Hmmmm. Since compensation is part of the intonation problem, why do we compensate from an open string, which maximizes the error at the uppermost frets? Can we not intonate from somewhere closer to the middle of the neck so the intonation error is half as large?


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TGNeil
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Sun Dec 19, 2010 8:47 pm

wrench wrote:
TGNeil wrote:
So Dan-

Why do we not notice intonation problems when we barre a fret?

Random fodder...

Neil
Because we're not listening for it. It is very much there. Good question, though.
I think there is more to it than that... any takers?


wrench
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Sun Dec 19, 2010 9:28 pm

TGNeil wrote:
wrench wrote:
TGNeil wrote:
So Dan-

Why do we not notice intonation problems when we barre a fret?

Random fodder...

Neil
Because we're not listening for it. It is very much there. Good question, though.
I think there is more to it than that... any takers?
OK, I get the same errant pitches with a capo and my index finger, so is it possible the answer has nothing to do with the guitar?


cosmicmechanic
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Sun Dec 19, 2010 11:57 pm

Not sure I grasp everything that has been said, but is it possible that the degradations in tuning with a capo that have been mentioned so far are those detected by electronic tools and that they are mostly inaudible to ordinary mortal humans ? (excluding the immortal kind).
If this is a dense remark, thanks for your indulgence.

Pierre


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TGNeil
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Mon Dec 20, 2010 1:02 am

A little hint- you can adjust the pitch with pressure from the index finger- more=sharp, less lowers the pitch. I suggest that your ear can tune the note in a way that the capo can't.

Neil


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neverfoundthetime
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Mon Dec 20, 2010 5:30 am

3. Strings of higher mass have greater error
This would explain why my lower E string is always out with the capo. It is always out too anywhere I fret it (even without capo). If I get my fretting finger 1mm away from or even on the fret bar, its less out of tune. Or is there some other problem? The other strings fret well more or less anywhere on the fretboard.


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