G'day fellow TG'rs
Firstly if this subject has already been covered then feel free to just point me in the right direction.
Anyway there has been a few threads lately regarding Guitar set up, cheaper guitars and just lately on changing the bridge (boning a guitar ?) :dry:
I am finding this all very interesting as my acoustic needs setting up, apart from new strings I've never touched it since I bought it years ago.
My guitar is not an expensive one but I would like to improve its playability and maybe its sound if I can.
I know I can change things like the bridge material, pins and even the nut and I have a reasonable idea on the procedures to follow,I just have a few questions about action.
With regards to action specifically the height of the 6th string at the 12th fret. Ive done some research on the net and I'm getting some very different measurements from 1/16'' (1.6mm) to 5/32'' (3.9mm)
My questions are what is your guitar set at? (12th fret ) and do you consider it to be a high or low action at that setting?
Do you get any fret buzz if you strum a bit hard? Do you think its too high or too low? are you happy with it?
I'm curios to know as it will give me some idea where to start and would really appreciate any information or advice you may have.
For the record my guitar measures 1/8'' (3.2mm) at the 12th (with no capo and I use light gauge strings ) and I would like to lower it, but how far should I aim for?
Thanks
Scott
Guitar Set-up (action)
Scott- setting up a guitar is really an exercise in geometry and my action at the 12th fret would only be marginally helpful to you. Each guitar, whether inexpensive or costly, has it's own geometry. The primary factor controlling action is the straightness of the neck. Straight is good but most guitars have a very slight bow to them otherwise the height of the strings over the frets would vary at every fret and probably be pretty high by the 12 fret (the 12th fret is always higher than the lower frets).
Also significant is whether your guitar has an adjustable truss rod. This rod is either accessible under a small cover on the headstock or through the soundhole where the neck meets the guitar. If you have a truss rod (most decent guitars do these days) you have great flexbility with regard to action. If not, in my limited experience with guitars without them, you really need to go to a luthier or repair tech and see what they can do.
IMHO, never, ever buy a guitar without a truss rod. Even if the price is right your ability to modify the playability is just too limited.
Also, you need to do a little personal inventory of how you play your guitar. I have one guitar that is set up for more picking with a plectrum and another that is better for fingerstyle playing. Also, if you will be using an amp you can have a lower action than if you have to make all the sound. If the action is set too low and you start wailing away on some hard rock tune you will get buzzing that is really annoying.
Personally, I have a really good luthier here in town that is factory trained and does a fantastic job with the setup on all my guitars. I won't even mess with it anymore. For the small fee they charge they not only adjust the neck for straightness but also side-to-side flatness, neck wear and whether the nut and saddle are set properly. It is money I consider very well spent!
Good luck mate! :cheer:
Also significant is whether your guitar has an adjustable truss rod. This rod is either accessible under a small cover on the headstock or through the soundhole where the neck meets the guitar. If you have a truss rod (most decent guitars do these days) you have great flexbility with regard to action. If not, in my limited experience with guitars without them, you really need to go to a luthier or repair tech and see what they can do.
IMHO, never, ever buy a guitar without a truss rod. Even if the price is right your ability to modify the playability is just too limited.
Also, you need to do a little personal inventory of how you play your guitar. I have one guitar that is set up for more picking with a plectrum and another that is better for fingerstyle playing. Also, if you will be using an amp you can have a lower action than if you have to make all the sound. If the action is set too low and you start wailing away on some hard rock tune you will get buzzing that is really annoying.
Personally, I have a really good luthier here in town that is factory trained and does a fantastic job with the setup on all my guitars. I won't even mess with it anymore. For the small fee they charge they not only adjust the neck for straightness but also side-to-side flatness, neck wear and whether the nut and saddle are set properly. It is money I consider very well spent!
Good luck mate! :cheer:
Thank for spending some time to reply Bigbear.
My guitar does have a truss rod and it will be one of the first things I check and adjust (with slight bow in middle)
I guess I should state that one of the reasons for doing my own set up is that I believe I will get a better understanding of the instrument and also I'm unaware of any luthiers in my area, the nearest music store to me is over 100 kl away.
I'm not concerned with working to fine tolerances as I do this every day as a machinist so I'm reasonably confident in my ability to do a set-up I'm just looking for some advise from guys like yourself as to your preferred set up.
As my guitar is not an expensive one I think its ideal to learn how to do a set it up if you know what I mean.
Also down the track when I do up grade my knowledge about what type of guitar and the set up I prefer will be better.
Thanks again for your advise
Cheers
Scott
My guitar does have a truss rod and it will be one of the first things I check and adjust (with slight bow in middle)
I guess I should state that one of the reasons for doing my own set up is that I believe I will get a better understanding of the instrument and also I'm unaware of any luthiers in my area, the nearest music store to me is over 100 kl away.
I'm not concerned with working to fine tolerances as I do this every day as a machinist so I'm reasonably confident in my ability to do a set-up I'm just looking for some advise from guys like yourself as to your preferred set up.
As my guitar is not an expensive one I think its ideal to learn how to do a set it up if you know what I mean.
Also down the track when I do up grade my knowledge about what type of guitar and the set up I prefer will be better.
Thanks again for your advise
Cheers
Scott
One of the best sites for set ups and quality info is Frets.com
http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/pagelist.html
I have done a couple of set ups and followed the instructions from here. Now as to where my guitars are at I'll get back to you once I find my micrometer lol
http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/pagelist.html
I have done a couple of set ups and followed the instructions from here. Now as to where my guitars are at I'll get back to you once I find my micrometer lol
coomba wrote:
Yuo can do it! Have fun! :cheer:
Scott- a lot of people do their own setup with no problems. I recently adjusted one of my Taylor's truss rod because I was getting buzzing at the 2nd & 3rd frets. A very minor adjustment and new strings solved my problem.Thank for spending some time to reply Bigbear.
My guitar does have a truss rod and it will be one of the first things I check and adjust (with slight bow in middle)
I guess I should state that one of the reasons for doing my own set up is that I believe I will get a better understanding of the instrument and also I'm unaware of any luthiers in my area, the nearest music store to me is over 100 kl away.
I'm not concerned with working to fine tolerances as I do this every day as a machinist so I'm reasonably confident in my ability to do a set-up I'm just looking for some advise from guys like yourself as to your preferred set up.
As my guitar is not an expensive one I think its ideal to learn how to do a set it up if you know what I mean.
Also down the track when I do up grade my knowledge about what type of guitar and the set up I prefer will be better.
Thanks again for your advise
Cheers
Scott
Yuo can do it! Have fun! :cheer:
Chas thanks for the info mate, Ive already checked out some of the articles , this site will be are very useful, cheers .
Bigbear, no worries mate ,I'll get stuck in , as soon as I find my angle grinder and lump hammer. :laugh:
Its funny though no one has mentioned the measurement at the 12th on the 6th yet ( Is it that personal a question
)
Bigbear, no worries mate ,I'll get stuck in , as soon as I find my angle grinder and lump hammer. :laugh:
Its funny though no one has mentioned the measurement at the 12th on the 6th yet ( Is it that personal a question
)
Hi Scott ... I expected this thread to bring forth a lot of good info and so far it has
coomba wrote:
I have two guitars that are quite different in terms of setup. One has a traditional bridge, saddle, bridge pins and truss rod. The other is a vintage archtop that does not have a truss rod nor bridge pins. It uses a tailpiece to anchor the strings and an adjustable bridge (no saddle).
Since the relief (bow) in the neck of the latter is not adjustable via a truss rod it would take an experienced luthier to modify that. As long as the neck has the right amount of relief adjusting the action is a simple matter of turning the nuts on the bridge to accommodate different string gauges and playing styles/preferences.
The former guitar (as is your case) is easily adjusted for neck relief via the truss rod but setting the action requires a bit more than that. The straightness of the neck is a factor in the guitars actions but it is the saddle height and to a degree the nut slot depth that directly affect the action. Lowering the action, which is probably what is most often desired, involves taking away material from the saddle and/or nut slots.
I am by no means very well versed in this area but even with a little bit of understanding I've found that I can keep my guitars setup to my liking without having to send it to the shop ... just for what it's worth
Ken
coomba wrote:
Not too personal of a question for me. I actually carry around a 2inch steel rule when I'm looking at guitars just so I can quickly check to get an idea of the action without relying on "eyeballing" it. Personally I like to see ~5/64" at low E and ~2/32" at the high E on my own guitars. If the guitar I'm holding at the time varies from that significantly I can take that into account.Its funny though no one has mentioned the measurement at the 12th on the 6th yet ( Is it that personal a question
I have two guitars that are quite different in terms of setup. One has a traditional bridge, saddle, bridge pins and truss rod. The other is a vintage archtop that does not have a truss rod nor bridge pins. It uses a tailpiece to anchor the strings and an adjustable bridge (no saddle).
Since the relief (bow) in the neck of the latter is not adjustable via a truss rod it would take an experienced luthier to modify that. As long as the neck has the right amount of relief adjusting the action is a simple matter of turning the nuts on the bridge to accommodate different string gauges and playing styles/preferences.
The former guitar (as is your case) is easily adjusted for neck relief via the truss rod but setting the action requires a bit more than that. The straightness of the neck is a factor in the guitars actions but it is the saddle height and to a degree the nut slot depth that directly affect the action. Lowering the action, which is probably what is most often desired, involves taking away material from the saddle and/or nut slots.
I am by no means very well versed in this area but even with a little bit of understanding I've found that I can keep my guitars setup to my liking without having to send it to the shop ... just for what it's worth
Ken
Scott, I think you are looking at two different measurments. First off, there's 'relief' or the amount of 'bow' in the neck. Then, there's 'clearance' or the distance between the twelfth fret (or actually any fret-we use the 12th as a 'benchmark') and the string (aka - string height).
Let's go over 'relief' first, as it should be the first thing we check and adjust before any others. We will use the 6th string (E - the fat one) in these measurments. The only tool we need for now is either a 'feeler gauge' (like the automotive one used for gapping spark plugs back in the old days) or a ruler. I prefer the feeler gauge myself.
Now we place a capo (or get someone to hold it down as we need three hands for this) above the 1st fret. We then hold the string down behind the 14th fret. What we are doing is creating a 'straight edge'. What we want to see is a tiny bit of curve, our neck, below that straight edge. There are, of course, varying theories as to which fret to use to get our measurement. Most agree with either the 5th fret while others prefer the 6th (closest to the middle of our straight line), others the 7th fret. Either way, we use our feeler gauge set at 0.006" +/- 0.002" for either the 5th or 7th fret, and 0.008" +/- 0.003" for the 6th fret. We want the gauge to be just ever so slightly touching, in fact we can go a step up and it should be touching and a step below and it should be clear. We want twice that difference (0.012" +/- 0.004") at the 1st (e-little one). Anything less than 0.006" at the fifth fret (6th-E) and we usually get buzz, larger is down to a personal preference and can vary with each player and guitar.
We now adjust the truss rod to achieve this measurement. Tweak the rod, some say no more than 1/4 turn, some say in 1/10th increments and then let it 'settle' before measuring again. I use 1/10th increments myself and let it settle for at least thirty minutes, yet I do have four guitars available. There are some who say let it settle for a day or so, but I've found no problems with thirty minutes. In fact, as I write this, the Seagull is on the bench now.
We now have our "relief"!!
Now for the second measurement.
We remove the capo (or tell our buddy he can leave and thank you so ever much!). We again will start with the 6th (E-fat one) in our measurments. Using our feeler gauge (or ruler) we slide it on top of the 12th fret. We are looking for somewhere between 0.085" to 0.093" (5.5/64">6/64"). Now we can measure the 1st string (e-the little one). We are looking for somewhere between 0.070" to 0.078" (4.5/64">5/64").
Personally, I would never touch the nut to lower the action, there are several theories about how the groove in the nut should be set and, deepening that groove is a 'permanent' change in settings. Theory is, the string should be just loose enough in the groove to allow some 'roll' yet tight enough to prevent the string from 'rolling' too much. Then add the fact that each groove is a different width according to string gauge and requires a minimum of a set of 6 'files'!
So, we now change our 'clearance' by removing the saddle and shaving the bottom off. We don't want to do anything to the top as most saddles are 'curved' to match the neck radius. Be sure to mark, in some matter, which side is up and/or down before removing the saddle. And yes, Michelle is correct in using a capo (on the 1st fret) to hold the strings in place after loosing them enough to work the saddle loose. Keeps you from totally removing them from the tuning nuts or the bridge as you may have to do several shaving jobs to get there. IOW - loosen the strings, then place the capo on them to sort of keep them in place, slide the saddle out (hopefully it's not glued in place!) and you save a lot of time as compared to taking them on and off each time you shave the saddle.
Or you can now pull the pins and remove the strings if you want.
To 'shave' the saddle, I like using one of those fingernail emory/sanding deals, the black ones. They are flat and come in rough enough grit to get the job done. One thing you do not want to do is start off whacking away at the thing, take it in slow easy steps. You may find you want to shave just a tiny bit off every time you change strings until you find just that right clearance. Lowering the strings will take away some of the sustain and volume.
If your clearance is too low (remember, we set the relief correctly and firstly) I would suggest a new saddle. Make sure the saddle is meant for your guitar. Things like radius and intonation compensation come into play here. There are shims made for raising the saddle, but if you use a piezo (under saddle) type pickup it will change the dynamics of it. That, and the fact that this is where a huge portion of the vibration>sound transfer occurs, why put a shim under it?
As for my personal taste, it depends on which guitar and what I use it for. My Gibson and Bennett are mainly strumming instruments. I set them a bit higher. The Seagull is a finger-picking instrument and I set it as low as possible. Since my strumming is somewhat 'light' I have the two strummers set a bit lower than someone who strums hard. The Ibanez, a Nylon 'Classical' instrument is set even higher.
In all honesty, Neck relief is neck relief. Yet the lower the clearance, the easier it is to push and hold down. But then again, most of us 'kill the wood' (use too much pressure) when we don't need to. You'll need to experiment around a bit to find just that right height for yourself.
One last thing. Whilst doing any of these adjustments, make sure the neck is 'free', lay the guitar entirely on it's backside - you don't want to use one of those neck support things as it can push the neck up!
Let's go over 'relief' first, as it should be the first thing we check and adjust before any others. We will use the 6th string (E - the fat one) in these measurments. The only tool we need for now is either a 'feeler gauge' (like the automotive one used for gapping spark plugs back in the old days) or a ruler. I prefer the feeler gauge myself.
Now we place a capo (or get someone to hold it down as we need three hands for this) above the 1st fret. We then hold the string down behind the 14th fret. What we are doing is creating a 'straight edge'. What we want to see is a tiny bit of curve, our neck, below that straight edge. There are, of course, varying theories as to which fret to use to get our measurement. Most agree with either the 5th fret while others prefer the 6th (closest to the middle of our straight line), others the 7th fret. Either way, we use our feeler gauge set at 0.006" +/- 0.002" for either the 5th or 7th fret, and 0.008" +/- 0.003" for the 6th fret. We want the gauge to be just ever so slightly touching, in fact we can go a step up and it should be touching and a step below and it should be clear. We want twice that difference (0.012" +/- 0.004") at the 1st (e-little one). Anything less than 0.006" at the fifth fret (6th-E) and we usually get buzz, larger is down to a personal preference and can vary with each player and guitar.
We now adjust the truss rod to achieve this measurement. Tweak the rod, some say no more than 1/4 turn, some say in 1/10th increments and then let it 'settle' before measuring again. I use 1/10th increments myself and let it settle for at least thirty minutes, yet I do have four guitars available. There are some who say let it settle for a day or so, but I've found no problems with thirty minutes. In fact, as I write this, the Seagull is on the bench now.
We now have our "relief"!!
Now for the second measurement.
We remove the capo (or tell our buddy he can leave and thank you so ever much!). We again will start with the 6th (E-fat one) in our measurments. Using our feeler gauge (or ruler) we slide it on top of the 12th fret. We are looking for somewhere between 0.085" to 0.093" (5.5/64">6/64"). Now we can measure the 1st string (e-the little one). We are looking for somewhere between 0.070" to 0.078" (4.5/64">5/64").
Personally, I would never touch the nut to lower the action, there are several theories about how the groove in the nut should be set and, deepening that groove is a 'permanent' change in settings. Theory is, the string should be just loose enough in the groove to allow some 'roll' yet tight enough to prevent the string from 'rolling' too much. Then add the fact that each groove is a different width according to string gauge and requires a minimum of a set of 6 'files'!
So, we now change our 'clearance' by removing the saddle and shaving the bottom off. We don't want to do anything to the top as most saddles are 'curved' to match the neck radius. Be sure to mark, in some matter, which side is up and/or down before removing the saddle. And yes, Michelle is correct in using a capo (on the 1st fret) to hold the strings in place after loosing them enough to work the saddle loose. Keeps you from totally removing them from the tuning nuts or the bridge as you may have to do several shaving jobs to get there. IOW - loosen the strings, then place the capo on them to sort of keep them in place, slide the saddle out (hopefully it's not glued in place!) and you save a lot of time as compared to taking them on and off each time you shave the saddle.
Or you can now pull the pins and remove the strings if you want.
To 'shave' the saddle, I like using one of those fingernail emory/sanding deals, the black ones. They are flat and come in rough enough grit to get the job done. One thing you do not want to do is start off whacking away at the thing, take it in slow easy steps. You may find you want to shave just a tiny bit off every time you change strings until you find just that right clearance. Lowering the strings will take away some of the sustain and volume.
If your clearance is too low (remember, we set the relief correctly and firstly) I would suggest a new saddle. Make sure the saddle is meant for your guitar. Things like radius and intonation compensation come into play here. There are shims made for raising the saddle, but if you use a piezo (under saddle) type pickup it will change the dynamics of it. That, and the fact that this is where a huge portion of the vibration>sound transfer occurs, why put a shim under it?
As for my personal taste, it depends on which guitar and what I use it for. My Gibson and Bennett are mainly strumming instruments. I set them a bit higher. The Seagull is a finger-picking instrument and I set it as low as possible. Since my strumming is somewhat 'light' I have the two strummers set a bit lower than someone who strums hard. The Ibanez, a Nylon 'Classical' instrument is set even higher.
In all honesty, Neck relief is neck relief. Yet the lower the clearance, the easier it is to push and hold down. But then again, most of us 'kill the wood' (use too much pressure) when we don't need to. You'll need to experiment around a bit to find just that right height for yourself.
One last thing. Whilst doing any of these adjustments, make sure the neck is 'free', lay the guitar entirely on it's backside - you don't want to use one of those neck support things as it can push the neck up!