A &$^#@*$%$@%$#^%^!!^&# poll

redpick
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Sat Feb 11, 2012 4:45 pm

TGNeil wrote:
A quick sideline before I weigh in on this. Who can pin down the first record to drop this particular bomb?
Neil, the earliest I remember (giving age away my age), is Country Joe and the Fish's "Give me an F etc/What's that spell". Is this the one you are thinking of?
Re OP question, depends on the audience, I've used "flying high" and its alternative by guaging my audience.
Re this site, unfortunately, some respondents have now let the genie out of the bottle, so I'll probably not let my 12 yo granddaughter share my love of this site.
I'm no prude - grew up quite near Gordon Ramsey if you get my drift and could probably win in a competition that I would not be proud of!
Neil, I haven't read the rules but swearing should not be allowed........


michelew
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Sat Feb 11, 2012 6:59 pm

Well, well, this has created quite a bit of discussion which is what I had hoped for. A broad range of views here, some of which I hadn't expected, many of which have made me smile (Kevin - you also cracked me up - so nude too eh??? - Chas - what HAVE you started here?).

At my core I feel it is just a word and I agree with a number of people in this thread that have said it should be treated as such. I still firmly believe that it's about delivery and how you use it rather than the word itself. It can be hilarious and/or very meaningful and also quite violent depending on how you use it.

The kids issue is complex, I'd be really interested to see the demographics of the users of this site; including occasional ones. I agree with Chris and Den that kids need to learn about context when it comes to swearing, especially about when it's meaningful and when it's just being lazy . But, of course there is such a thing as too young.

Redpick, I don't believe that this thread will change the sensitivity of TG members who to date are very respectful (the vast majority of the time... I can stumble into stirring too much at times and being too lude myself).

Neil - thanks so much for adding your view on this. I guess it is up to each of us to make our own decision about what we're comfortable with, unless of course you do decide to make a TG policy based on some of the feed back to date.

I put this up because I can't remember it ever being discussed and I wanted to get an idea about the range of views and how strongly they are held. Lots os food for thought here.

Thanks EVERYONE for responding. So why haven't you voted? Maybe the options are too narrow.

Thanks again.

Shel


lueders
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Sat Feb 11, 2012 8:24 pm

I know I said I was on the fence before...but the more I think about this Michele.
The more I think an edit button "of sorts" is in order. Here are some of my recent rambling thoughts on the matter...

The liberal side of me...which is most of me, says: "Yeah sure go for it!" I mean ya know why not?...freedom of expression, artistic license...in- an-of- itself the F--- it is just word... all that kind of stuff certainly runs through my head. But frankly I always liked the fact that this is and has been predominately a family oriented site. And yes, I admit that I have selfish reasons too. I like being able to log onto T.G.@ work... Because TG has a good rep & nothing to trigger the filters there. But if the F-bomb starts to be thrown willy-nilly, all- over the place that will end my ability to do that. I suppose that might be true for others as well.

I think it is sort of easy to forget (I know it is for me) that the 35-55 of us that are active in the forum aren't at a backyard beer bash in the valley somewhere...or over at Chas's eating shrimp and telling jokes. We're on-line folks...and like it or not because of that we have certain inherent responsibilities. Words have power. That's why they are so effective in these songs. The F_ _ _ word is collectively and perhaps universally thought of us a forbidden, no-no word. And for whatever reason, this seems to be part of a largely accepted social contract governing polite vocabulary. Most of are willing to accept those parameters through out the day...at work or wherever. And we don't generally feel that it is much of a sacrifice on our parts. I would gladly sacrifice my
right to drop the F-bomb if it made the difference of an eleven year-olds being allowed to join this site by their parents/grandparents/guardians. So is it worth it? I don't think it is. Especially when there are plenty of songs out there. And if we wanna sing those songs we can. But we don't have to post 'em.

And as for using the print/television media as a yardstick for appropriate behavior/vocabulary. I think we can see how that can be problematic. I am not surprised more & more publications are using those words...it helps them sell $$ (Perhaps their readerships are falling off...due to competition with other media outlets & the internet.) We certainly don't have to be totally socialized by the media. Speaking of that I... have got into a bad habit of letting words like "pissed off" slip into my vocabulary in some of my High School Art classes. And rather than rationalize it by saying: "ah shucks, they say it on prime-time television nowadays"like I did)... I should simply try to edit myself. Because it is the responsible thing to do/aim for.

I hope I'm not being hypocritical here. After all, I'm the same guy who did a "Blister In The Sun" cover and sang all the words...and subject matter-wise it might of been deemed a bit unsavory to some. (I remember pondering over whether to do it or not, much the same way you are Michele.) Did I cross the line singing about "stained sheets" dunno. Perhaps? Well, I do know I certainly wouldn't feel comfortable singing much of that bands other material. ( I'm sure Suzi & Dennis know what I mean on that one.)

A couple folks that have come forward & made comments [Scott (Coomba) & Redpick] have made a lot of sense to me.
Anyways, like I said "Words have Power" and I don't want to use my words in a divisive way. I want them to be inclusive & positive. Am I full crap? I dunno? Am I hypocrite? I dunno? I do know one thing; Scott is right...If we go down this road. It could have some unexpected/unforeseen/unwanted results .


michelew
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Sat Feb 11, 2012 8:53 pm

I don't disagree with anything you've said Cori.

I do think that sex shouldn't be taboo. Violence and a whole bunch of other stuff we DEFINITELY need a whole lot less of that. Cursing.... ??? But, sex... it's part of life and I'd love to live in a world where it is Ok to talk about it in real ways and to be real about it on TV and in a whole bunch or other forums. Sure I still giggle - basically I am silly at my core - I love laughing and well the two often go together for me. :) what can I say. I love ...laughing. :)

Anyway... points well made. Thanks for being so well considered. I'm betting you're a GREAT teacher!

I'd still love to hear others views on this.

Michele


dennisg
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Sat Feb 11, 2012 8:59 pm

Cori, your post is very lucid and well-stated, as l would expect from you. You ask the question, "Am I full of crap?" And contained in that question is the whole problem with this subject. You use the word "crap," which may offend several people since its literal meaning refers to fecal material. Sure, that's not the context you use it in. But that's not going to matter to some people. The same applies to other words. Who among us is going to draw up a list of which words are likely to offend? And what percentage of the TG population has to be offended before the word is considered taboo?

A long time ago, Andy asked the reasonable question if anyone aside from him is offended by the use of the word "god" applied to Eric Clapton. I don't recall that anyone but Andy voiced dismay at the use of this word in that context. But is it okay to use the word if only Andy is bothered by it? Or should any word that offends be stricken from the TG vocabulary?

I don't want to have to parse every line of a song I'm considering singing with the idea that one word or another might offend someone. Because I can guarantee you that there's hardly a song out there that isn't going to offend someone's moral, religious, political, social, intellectual, or musical sensibilities. I choose my songs because, in one way or another, I'm passionate about them -- and I don't hold the lyrics up to the light to see if there's any remote possibility someone somewhere is going to be offended. I make an assumption that, yes, there will be people offended by my songs, although I can't always predict why they might be -- and I've yet to use a profanity in any of my songs. But that's only by chance.

Regardless of how this discussion turns out, I'm going to continue choosing my songs the same way. That doesn't mean my aim is turn this into a smutfest. It means inappropriateness -- like beauty -- is in the eye of the beholder. And who here do you want to nominate as the arbiter to determine what's inappropriate in song lyrics?


dekotaj
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Sat Feb 11, 2012 10:55 pm

SLOW down everyone. This site and the people on it have NEVER been the type were we use smut.Besides the last post of mine on this thread.I don't remember ever being smut on this site.So I took it down,and let me say it was to be funny to someone I feel close to no this site.She is a good friend and a adult person.I would say the FACT that this thread was even brought up by Shel. (In fact says it all.) We all Care, no one trying to do any one wrong here!!

And I would like to say that it's my privilege to no you all.I can't tell you what it means to have a great group of people to share the love and passion of music with.


lueders
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Sat Feb 11, 2012 11:04 pm


Ya know, aside from the obvious guitar related enthusiasm of this site I love this place for all the good discussions we have here...


Michele, thanks.

Yes, I agree wholeheartedly. Kids should certainly feel as though they can talk about sex...without fear of ridicule or
judgment.(And a whole bunch of other stuff... especially stuff that involves their safety & well-being.) Yeah, modeling an
environment of open communication is definitely the way to go. I have tried to go that route. On the other hand, I don't
wanna be hearing about the captain of the football team's latest escapades while I'm trying to lecture about the Elements of Art &
design or Picasso's Blue Period. lol! Kids get distracted and off task very, very easily. You are hard pressed to find a GROUP
of teens that can self regulate with any regularity. lol! I do see why a lot of teachers...might employ a stand-off-ish,
strictly business approach in the classroom. I try to do an ordered chaos type thing. But I can see why some teachers would go the
other route. I think a negative consequence of this approach might be to shut down the lines of communication.

Dennis- Yes, indeed where to draw the line? And who is worthy to draw said line? I'm pickin' up what you're layin' down.
I'm sure like all such things, this debate will be settled by which extreme (right or left) tugs the farthest. Since its in the T.G. universe...a betting man would guess center-left would be where the battle line reaches a stalemate. lol!
It's essentially the old censorship vs. anti-censorship type debate. It's been great hearing your point of view on this and the
way you articulate your points so well. You're a sharp fellow!


michelew
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Sat Feb 11, 2012 11:11 pm

dekotaj wrote:
SLOW down everyone. This site and the people on it have NEVER been the type were we use smut.Besides the last post of mine on this thread.I don't remember ever being smut on this site.So I took it down,and let me say it was to be funny to someone I feel close to no this site.She is a good friend and a adult person.I would say the FACT that this thread was even brought up by Shel. (In fact says it all.) We all Care, no one trying to do any one wrong here!!

And I would like to say that it's my privilege to no you all.I can't tell you what it means to have a great group of people to share the love and passion of music with.
Kevin,

I don't think the debate is getting too heated. Maybe I missed something.

It's a shame you took your comment down. I personally found it hilarious and very refreshing and not out of line at all. But, I guess you've got to do what feels right. I often edit my responses, I often do it because I feel I've gone too far, ... and then others tell me I haven't. Regardless, I think we all self-regulate pretty well and are pretty honest and reasonable about letting people know when we think they've gone too far. It hasn't happened for a while from memory.

Anyway... This was just intended to get this stuff out into the open and to hear the views of the community, not to stir up trouble or offend people.

Shel


rdaltry
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Sat Feb 11, 2012 11:20 pm

okay


michelew
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Sun Feb 12, 2012 2:39 am

Well I have to say that I was surprised to see this video given where the discussion was at just before it.

The performance is a good one. It is an amazing song and definitely uses the F-word to good effect; passion and emphasising a point.

I guess I'll leave it there and let others respond.


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