Learning tough tunes...how do you go about it??

tovo
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Sun Mar 04, 2012 7:14 pm

Hi all.

As is common with my threads I will ramble on a bit here, hopefully the point of the question will emerge somewhere along the way!

I'm talking about songs that are "In the red zone". Those tough tunes with the very intimidating red numbers alongside in the list of lessons. That's where I have been spending my quiet mornings over the past several months. My reason if anyone is curious is that I find I get a lot of satisfaction from the discipline it requires. I'm certainly not dissing learning and playing easy tunes, but after a lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth, I seem to gain most satisfaction from spending a long time on something that is currently beyond my ability, and getting on top of it to a degree.

So let me go to my specific example. I've been learning "Stray Cat Strut" for at least 3 months. (Brian Setzer is playing here in Adelaide this month...I'm so there!) I have the intro, the 1st verse and the 1st lead down pretty well and can play it up to speed and with good rhythm (although self praise is no great recommendation to be sure). I spend each morning going over and over those parts, and for the most part it's all going well. I now feel ready to move on and learn more of the tune.

So my question is, from my description am I going about it the right way? Should I have spent so long on just a few parts of the tune getting them up to speed before moving on, or should I have learned the whole thing roughly and then worked to improve it all?

I know, everyone learns differently. I am however, very interested in your opinion and I'm not so much after a definitive "Yes" or "No" answer, more I thought it might make for a useful discussion.

Hope everyone is well and playing heaps.


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neverfoundthetime
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Sun Mar 04, 2012 7:23 pm

Hey Tony, good to hear from you! I usually avoid tough tunes like the plague! But there again I find a song I've always wanted to play and... its not easy. Hmmm. I guess when it happens that way around I have the motivation and drive to push through and then I always seem to find a way... but I have no fixed recipe, I just do what it takes. Sometimes it means endlessly repeating a riff or working on some fingering or (as you may hear on Simple Game - just posted), the rhythm. On Simple game, I've been coming back to it for ages and ages, never satisfied with my solution for the rhythm... which is why I posted it as I have no idea if its ok like that or not... it seems to work but I'm fudging so much of it to get by, so then I need feedback.

I'd love to hear what you've been working on ... and make some comment on what you've been doing from a concrete example. Anything to get you to post! :-).


suziko
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Sun Mar 04, 2012 7:34 pm

Tony,

Well, like you said, we all learn differently. My method, when tackling a tune that is out of my comfort zone, is to get a measure down roughly and then move on to the next. I find it more fun to practice something if I have a chunk to play over and over, rather than just spending a week (for example) perfecting one measure and then moving on. Then, once I've got the whole piece down roughly, I start the refining process. I'll look at which bits I am continuously stumbling over, and then I'll play that measure (or even few notes) over and over again. Then I try to re-incorporate that into the whole piece.

I am not the most patient person in the world, so while I like to pick a challenging piece now and then, I don't like playing things that are WAY over my head. I find it too frustrating and discouraging to get stuck on one measure for too long. I tend to be most comfortable in the up-to-five (in Neil's rating) zone, so picking around a 7 is a good challenge for me, without making myself feel like the world's worst guitarist. Eventually I'll play harder things (the 8s and 9s), but right now, I'm happy stretching for the 7s. I remember not that long ago when a 3 or 4 was a real challenge for me, so I'm thrilled to be where I am right now.

Suzi


tovo
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Sun Mar 04, 2012 7:45 pm

neverfoundthetime wrote:
I'd love to hear what you've been working on ... and make some comment on what you've been doing from a concrete example. Anything to get you to post! :-).
Mate I told you what I've been working on! :) (Thanks for the reply too!)

Suzi thanks, exactly the kind of response and discussion I was looking for. We are different you and I (apart from the beauty and the beast aspect) in that I am very patient with regard to learning a tune and can play that one measure over and over ad nauseam (as my Wife can surely attest). My issue is knowing when enough is enough and moving on. It's not at all about the big numbers and I'm sure not suggesting I play that stuff easily, I sure don't. But it seems to suit my style of leaning and gives me the most satisfaction. Plus....at least with the tough tunes I have some excuse for sucking!! ;) Thanks for a great response.


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neverfoundthetime
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Sun Mar 04, 2012 8:36 pm

Mate I told you what I've been working on! (Thanks for the reply too!)
I'd really like to hear how you've progressed on Stray Cat Strut, that is one hell of a cool piece!

Suzi, you're one impressive gal, 7s ? I'd have to consult the runes and sacrifice something expensive before smooching around 7s or 8s. But I've seen how far and fast you have progressed since coming here so I know you are up for it. I think you and Tony have a certain conscientiousness in common when it comes to practising. I tip my hat to both of you.


suziko
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Sun Mar 04, 2012 8:46 pm

Suzi, you're one impressive gal, 7s ? I'd have to consult the runes and sacrifice something expensive before smooching around 7s or 8s.

Well, now, just cos i'm playing 7s doesn't necessarily mean i'm playing them well! :) But I figure if i always stay in my comfort zone I'm never going to progress. I think Tony and I both share the zeal of the newly-converted. I try to practice about 2 hours/day (not counting weekends, when I barely am able to pick up my guitar). But we'll see if I am putting in that much time 20 years from now!

I also wanted to say how much I love Stray Cat Strut. It's definitely a song I'd like to tackle at some point . I'm currently working on a level-7 tune that I"m hoping to get to a good-enough state to post at some point soonish. But I'd rather keep the title a secret :)


wrench
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Sun Mar 04, 2012 9:57 pm

Conventional wisdom says work on a measure or a section at a time.

I'm not conventional. I first learn the whole song by chord structure and rhythm. Then I work on playing it correctly in its entirety slowly and poorly for the several weeks or months it will take to play it cleanly. My reasoning for this approach is the difference between learning information and developing skills. A difficult song will take about 30 minutes or so to learn. Once it's learned, it's learned. After that, it's only physical repetition until the skills catch up to the knowledge. By approaching a section at a time, I always felt I didn't know exactly where I was going, and in fact had difficulty linking the sections together later. It just never felt like a cohesive effort.


Lavallee
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Sun Mar 04, 2012 11:51 pm

HI Tony good to hear from you. I like those tough songs. I must love the song before committing to learn it however. I am very patient in the learning. First challenge besides memorizing (one section at the time) is to develop muscle memory (as you memorize multiple sections, the first sections starts to kick in with the muscle memory).

But I find I do not have much rhythm or do not have much feel for it . For example I was playing with Chris a while back and I was going wrong about a song and he pick it up right away. And it is not a single event , playing with Pierre was the same and the same with you when we met . You guys have a good feel for rhythm. , I struggle with that. So my real challenge is to play against the song for a very long time before it becomes more realistic. I am using guitar pro a lot and I follow the rhythm which I eventually pick up but it is not natural.

Marc


Chasplaya
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Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:56 am

Like Marc I must first like the song very much. So I get it in my head before tackling it on guitar. I listen to various versions on YT looking in addition to Neils lesson if one exists for the idiosyncrasies of the tune (then I go back to something easier lol) no seriously, I try at first to play completely through several times to find the bits I have issues with then I go concentrate on them for a while, then go back to playing through completely, then back and forth till it sounds half decent. Once I've got structure and difficult bits I then work on tempo. Trouble with me I sometimes get disillusioned and move onto another song for a while then come back and restart the process all over!


AndyT
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Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:56 am

I like to create a campfire version right off the bat so I can have fun with it. After I've played it for a while, I start adding bits and pieces of the 'full' version over time. I also put it into a key that's easy for me to play since my hand injuries make me struggle with barre chords. Eventually I'll have a complete version ready to go.

Right now, I'm working on Hotel California and Silent Lucidty. I'm creating arrangements for solo guitar that still sound good enough to play anywhere. I very rarely ever play anything the same way as the original. If I wanted to hear the original, I'd carry a player with me. But that's not why I learned to play. I want to give things my own twist. Music is a personal expression to me and that's how I play.

No matter what Chas says...


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