Learning tough tunes...how do you go about it??

tovo
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Mon Mar 05, 2012 1:13 am

Suzi "The zeal of the newly converted". Yes, I like that description.

Wrench I value that input and it's interesting to read about your approach.

I sure didn't notice any lack of rythmn Marc but I accept when you say it doesn't come easy to you. I guess loving the song is a bit of a prerequisite eh? I have had little success in learning stuff that I had no love for.

Chas I work hard to avoid being sidetracked, but I was saying to a friend the other day that being very single minded has advantages and disadvantages. Helps in terms of learning tough tunes but spending so much time on just 1 has a detrimental affect on recalling others! He told me that at least once a week he plays everything he knows...and he knows a lot. Seems a good approach to ensuring that songs you have worked hard to learn stay with you.

Andy the idea of a simple version that gets gradually embellished is a good one and yet another approach. Thanks for sharing that.

Chris if that banner ever makes it down here to us convicts I might show a bit of the strut then.


AndyT
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Mon Mar 05, 2012 1:24 am

The better I can 'hear' the song in my head, the easier it is to learn. Depending on how well I know it, I can pick up a campfire version pretty quickly. Getting all the little riffs and signatures can take quite some time.


sws626
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Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:47 am

Hi Tony,

Great to hear you're working on this song. It's definitely on my list, but also a bit intimidating.

My approach would be pretty close to the one you describe. I'd first identify the hard parts and take the shortest section that makes musical sense played in a loop and work on that until I'm comfortable. Comfortable wouldn't necessarily mean playing at full tempo. Then I'd move on to the next. Typically, this gets me to the point of playing at least through one round of verse and chorus. Only after I'm confident playing the whole thing through would I start to worry about getting it up to full tempo.

-Stuart


mark
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Mon Mar 05, 2012 5:17 am

Hi Tony,

Here's the approach I take to trying to learn difficult tunes.
First I think it's good to recognise that it is a difficult tune and losing any expectaion of playing it well with a few days or weeks.

I work on the first small section - probably about 4 bars and hopefully something that can be looped.
I try and get this completly memorised. when I can play this section at a slow tempo and from memory I move on to the next section (but keep practicing the first section as well). Eventually you have the whole tune and can put everything together.

If the tune is presently too difficult, it's good to work on it for a while and then drop it for a bit. When you come back to it it may seem a bit easier.

For easier or shorter tunes I would learn the whole lot at once but I don't think this works well for longer or more complicated tunes.


willem
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Mon Mar 05, 2012 5:59 am

Yes I'm learning(practicing) everyday,,bar by bar,,section by section,,verse by verse,,transition by transition,,well well etc..of course we must do it bit by bit..

I get to most of it when it is totally memorized then I can concentrate on others stuff like placing the fingers right behind frets or finding good guitar of hand position also the thumb must find his place behind the fret board and is an adventure on his own,, I am working now a lot on ''on the horizon'' and there are some transitions that cost me a lot of pain (cos of the muscle not being devoloped) by playing that part a lot(over and over) I discoverd things on my own,,well of course i heard it somewhere in the lessons and did'nt think of it when needed,,

I find practicing and playing bit by bits over and over very fun to do but there must no one be around,,

Hope you get the banner sone so we can enjoy your stray cat strut.

W.


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neverfoundthetime
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Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:21 am

For example I was playing with Chris a while back and I was going wrong about a song and he pick it up right away. And it is not a single event , playing with Pierre was the same and the same with you when we met . You guys have a good feel for rhythm. , I struggle with that.
I know what you mean Marc, we definitely learn things in very different ways. I think I need to "hear" it and get a "feel" for the song and get enthused by the emotions it creates so I really want to get as much on board in a subconscious way first. You analyse and construct a song when playing and you listen in a much more precise and systematic way, in my opinion, and when you say to me, "there's another beat or bar in there you've missed" I'm going to trust your word more than my ear as I know you are very precise about these things. Makes playing together easier and more fun for me as I can lean on your framework and be buoyed by it and focus even more on the feel and flow, so we work well together because we have such different ways of learning. You definitely represent the mathematical side of music and I have great respect for this as its something which is not so strong in me and a side I need to develop more.


abiliog
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Mon Mar 05, 2012 9:40 am

Hi Tony,
I've been practicing a "red song" for some time and basically, I follow the same approach as you do.
First and only condition, I must love the song :woohoo: . I know it's gonna be a long time relationship, so I must love it deeply.
I spend everyday, playing the same measures over and over again till I'm satisfied. When it happens, then I follow to the next two measures and so till the end.
It will take a lot of weeks to master the song :blink: , but I don't move along to the next measures while I'm not happy with the previous ones.

Meanwhile, I try to pick one or two easy songs to learn, songs with different skills, and also spend the remaining time playing
songs already in memory, to improve my playing and feel more confortable with them.
Sometimes I stop practicing the "red song" for two or three days. Usually my wife end up with something like:
- Did you quit learning that song? Don't you dare... You are going better.
That's is all I need to hear. :)

Is this a good method? I just don't know but it's working somehow.

I'm glad to read about you,
Abilio


dtaylor
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Mon Mar 05, 2012 1:14 pm

Hi Tony,
like you I'm most enthusiastic about learning something which I know to be beyond me before I start, and like most have said, I have to love the song.
I'll learn measures together such that they make musical sense, and play them in a loop, as close to full speed as possible. Once I have the mechanics down I'll move on to the next part. I won't necessarily try to join the dots yet, I sometimes play chunks in isolation for weeks before attempting to play the whole thing together.

I've been playing for 3 years now and find I'm practicing more than ever and always finding new challenges. I get the sense that I'll never get to a point where there wont be something out of reach to aim for. Kinda nice knowing that I'll always be able to get that giddy sense of wonder at being able to play something that was once a pipe-dream.

Dean


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Music Junkie
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Mon Mar 05, 2012 1:40 pm

Tony:

If memory serves, you fought a certain song for a long time (NW) and finally got it down. I know that you felt damn good about that one as well you should have.. B)

For me, I need the following in order:

1. Chord Structures and fingerings (are the chords basic open shapes or are they alternate shapes). I find that most of the more difficult songs usually don't have the basic shapes.

2. Rhythm and time signature. Many times I will just practice a certain strum or picking pattern without even fingering a chord. I just need to get the pattern itself into my thick skull (and I mean really thick at times).

3. Once I am somewhat comfortable with the chord shapes and the timing/pattern, I will start with one measure very slowly. I will stay on that till I can play it pretty smoothly at about 50-60% speed. Then I will move on to the next measure. Depending on the song, I will work on the new measure by itself or I might play them in succession.

4. Once I get to a point where I have all of the measures down, I will try to put them together and attempt to play the song from start to finish at the rate of 50-60% of actual speed. When that is working nicely, I will start to speed the song up at incremental levels until it all works at normal speed. Depending on the song, it may be a few days or several months.

I openly admit that there are also times when I need to put a song aside and give myself a break. The single mindedness can take the fun out of it for me from time to time. I find that giving a song a small break can be helpful as well. To much of a break though, and I tend to lose the muscle memory (especially on picking patterns and odd chord shapes). :)

MJ


dennisg
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Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:31 pm

I think I tend to play a new song as as far as I can go until I trip over a hurdle. I'll practice that particular bit over and over until I feel comfortable, then move on to the next hurdle.

Currently I've been playing Sheryl Crow's Strong Enough, a song that constantly alternates measures between 2 beats and 4 beats. I've never seen another song quite like that. So the first hurdle was getting comfortable switching between the two beat patterns. Once I cleared that hurdle, I moved along to a chord I'd never seen before: a Bmadd13. It was pretty tricky at first landing on that chord, but I'm fairly comfortable with it now.

At any rate, one problem at a time for me. Them move along to the next one.


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