A few 12-String Questions

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Tue Apr 09, 2013 10:46 am

I have been doing some research on 12-string acoustics lately. I have always wanted one, but have yet to take the plunge. I am hoping some of you who currently own, or have owned one in the past might share some of your experience. I love the fullness and depth that some 12-strings can bring, but can be a bit put off by the chimey/jangly sound that others can produce. After reviewing the tonewood info several times over in the Taylor site and various others, I think I have a decent grasp of what different woods SHOULD do. It has always been my experience that there is just no substitute for hearing it yourself though. I have narrowed my choices down to a model with either Rosewood back and sides, or Mahogany back and sides. The rosewood has the stronger overtones. The bass and high should be much more pronounced, with the mid scooped out a bit. The mahogany has the better midrange and warmth. I am tending to lean toward the mahogany right now. There are several options and combinations for the top wood. Typically you would find sitka spruce with the rosewood, and even with the mahogany. I have read that engleman spruce can produce a bit more of the "broken-in" sound at an earlier stage in the life of the guitar. I have also read that cedar can be very warm and inviting, and is kind of popular with the mahogany back and sides.

I am very curious as to what any of you 12-string players have owned. What wood combinations did/do you have? What did/do you love/hate about it? I stumbled on a site that listed Greg Lake's guitar which had rosewood back and sides with a mahogany top. Not a combination I have seen before. Of course Greg Lake could probably play ANYTHING and make it sound great... B)

I have listened to tons of YT clips as well, but that only goes so far. Obviously going to the local store and playing as many varieties as possible is the rule of thumb, but being a lefty truly inhibits that process. Plus, there just are not that many 12-string models hanging in most of the local stores here. Even my last trip to Hollywood proved less than fruitful at the big Guitar Center and the Sam Ash across the street.

So, please enlighten me, ANY input will be greatly appreciated.... B)

Thanks,
Jason


dennisg
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Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:18 am

Jason,

You're asking very good questions. And I'll bet it's times like this when being a lefty feels like a huge disadvantage since, as you observed, there aren't many 12-strings in stores to begin with, and virtually no lefties.

For starters, most 12-string guitars don't deliver the kind of bass that you're used to from a 6-string, and that's because the bracing is so beefy in order to deal with the huge amount of string tension a 12-string requires. All that bracing inhibits the vibration from the top wood. With that in mind, I'd be inclined to get one with rosewood back and sides, since that's going to produce a bit more bass than the exact same guitar with mahogany back and sides.

The second factor, and at least as important as the type of wood used, is the body size. You want a really large top on a 12-string so that it can vibrate more freely. Using Taylor's nomenclature, I'd opt for a Grand Symphony or a jumbo (discontinued, but available on the used market) size, and I'd probably stay away from the Grand Auditorium size. There's just not enough surface area on the top to accommodate all that bracing.

You haven't mentioned anything about budget, which would be really helpful to know. If budget weren't an issue, I know what I'd do if I were in your shoes: I'd order an LKSM (Leo Kotke Signature Model) from a Taylor dealer. It comes with heavier strings and is made to be tuned to C#. You'll get plenty of bass and oodles of shimmer out of that guitar. Here's what it sounds like in the hands of someone good. Notice how balanced the various frequencies are.



If budget IS a big issue, there's always this lefty Seagull. It just happens to be in my neck of the woods: http://seattle.craigslist.org/est/msg/3721053251.html


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Tue Apr 09, 2013 12:32 pm

Dennis:

As always, your responses are well thought out and spot on. Thanks for the input, and yes, I had thought about size, but forgot to mention it.... :huh: I was introduced to Taylor's new line of Grand Orchestra guitars, which are a step up from the GA and GS models (see the 2013 Guitar Guide). It is very intriguing.... I actually emailed Bob Taylor to ask him a few questions too... ;) From what I can gather, the LK models have been discontinued (though one could always be had in a BTO model).

Budget...... That is always a trick..... I have to balance my need (desire) for the guitar with my need (desire) to stay happily married..... :woohoo: For now, I am looking at a range of between $600 and $3,000.00. I know that there is quite a range there, but I have found that some of the Jumbo Guild models can be very affordable and come highly recommended in the 12-string world... My hope is to stay in the Taylor world, as I have yet to find another manufacturer with a neck that feels anywhere near as comfortable (fellow Taylor owners know what I mean)... There is not an overabundance of info out yet on the GO's from Taylor, but Something in Rosewood would be a 758ce, or a 858ce. Something in Mahogany would be a 558ce.....

I have also thought that this research might be a good time to finally make that trip down to the factory for the tour that I have been meaning to take for 3 yrs, but have not gotten around too......

Your comment about the bracing and the effect that it has on the top wood was very helpful. Another option I am trying to figure out is whether or not I will ever need the cut-away, or if a jumbo would be just fine. I tend to like to have something just in case.... Better to have the cut-away and not use it that often, than to not have it and want it from time to time. However, not having the cut-away just increases the size of the top wood.....

I have settled in and accepted that this is probably going to take some time. I am going talk to as many folks like yourself as I can before plopping down the $$$ for something like this. I certainly don't want to be disappointed. I am hoping for the same sensation that I got from buying my 814ce. Maybe that is a bad thing..... :unsure: I know that whatever model I buy, it will open up with time as well. My 814ce is going on 3-4yrs old now, and is starting to sound so beautiful to me. I just strung up some heavier EXP strings the other day and was fascinated by the tone. So, I need to think about not only the initial tone, but what it will grow into...

Thanks again for your insight, Dennis. I can always count on solid advice from you.... B)

Jason


haoli25
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Tue Apr 09, 2013 1:23 pm

Jason, finding a "leftie" 12 string is going to be a tall order, BUT before you buy, find a Guild F-512 (new or used) and play it. For me personally, the top-of-the-line Taylors and Martins (and they sound good) do not compare. If you can't find an F-512, look for an F-412. Still a great sounding 12-string for a lot less money. (your wife will be very happy) :laugh: :laugh:


Bill


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Tue Apr 09, 2013 1:37 pm

Jason,

At least when it comes to Taylors, I tend to keep my ears open when news comes out. That's why I spend a lot of time in the Taylor forum.

You're right that a 12-string with the new Grand Orchestra body would be awesome, but I don't think they're making them yet. Right now they've only got a 518 (mahogany), 618 (maple), and 918 (rosewood) in 6-string models -- but I wouldn't be at all surprised if they released 12-strings in that body shape fairly soon. They did, after all, nuke their jumbos, so something's gotta take their place.

Wow, a budget of from $600 to $3000 -- that's quite a disparity. If I were you, I'd do as much research as possible to discover if you really, really want a 12-string guitar, because if you buy one, then decide that it just isn't your thing, you'll have a heck of a time reselling it. The used market for 12-strings is very slow; the used market for lefty 12-strings is practically non-existent.

With all my blabbering on about these guitars, you'd think I own one, but I don't. Every time I think I'd like to have one, I go in to my local guitar shop and play a couple of them, and that seems to scratch my itch. The idea of playing one is always more appealing to me than the reality of owning one. A 12-string is a very identifiable sound that doesn't lend itself to just any kind of music, despite what people like Leo Kotke can do with it. They're an absolute bitch to fingerpick. But if you can identify enough songs (beyond Supertramp's Give a Little Bit) that you think aren't complete unless played on a 12-string, then go for it. I'm not opposed to unusual guitars; in fact, I own and regularly play a baritone guitar, but I spent two years researching them to make sure it wasn't just a passing fancy. If you can come out of that research on the other end and feel like it's a guitar that'll keep you busy, then go for it. And as long as you're going for it, get the one you love ... not the one you can put up with.


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Tue Apr 09, 2013 1:53 pm

haoli25 wrote:
Jason, finding a "leftie" 12 string is going to be a tall order, BUT before you buy, find a Guild F-512 (new or used) and play it. For me personally, the top-of-the-line Taylors and Martins (and they sound good) do not compare. If you can't find an F-512, look for an F-412. Still a great sounding 12-string for a lot less money. (your wife will be very happy) :laugh: :laugh:


Bill
Bill:

Funny that you mention these two models.... These two and even a 212XLCE are on my current list. I was able to check out a right handed model of the 512 the other day down in Thousand Oaks, CA (just 20min south of me). It felt pretty good, and sounded nice. That is one of the reasons that I am keeping my budget so varied. The neck on the Guild felt fairly nice as well. Actually, I was able to check out a Martin D12-28 in the same shop. The martin, like on the 000-15M that I own and love, had a bit of a sticky neck (my major complaint about most of the martins that I have tried out - beautiful tone, but sticky necks...). The guild was a bit silkier.... The price tag on the Guilds is about half of what you might pay for some of the other models....

You are quite correct that it would make this case of G.A.S. much more conducive to sustaining my marriage..... :laugh:


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Tue Apr 09, 2013 2:00 pm

dennisg wrote:
Jason,

At least when it comes to Taylors, I tend to keep my ears open when news comes out. That's why I spend a lot of time in the Taylor forum.

You're right that a 12-string with the new Grand Orchestra body would be awesome, but I don't think they're making them yet. Right now they've only got a 518 (mahogany), 618 (maple), and 918 (rosewood) in 6-string models -- but I wouldn't be at all surprised if they released 12-strings in that body shape fairly soon. They did, after all, nuke their jumbos, so something's gotta take their place.

Wow, a budget of from $600 to $3000 -- that's quite a disparity. If I were you, I'd do as much research as possible to discover if you really, really want a 12-string guitar, because if you buy one, then decide that it just isn't your thing, you'll have a heck of a time reselling it. The used market for 12-strings is very slow; the used market for lefty 12-strings is practically non-existent.

With all my blabbering on about these guitars, you'd think I own one, but I don't. Every time I think I'd like to have one, I go in to my local guitar shop and play a couple of them, and that seems to scratch my itch. The idea of playing one is always more appealing to me than the reality of owning one. A 12-string is a very identifiable sound that doesn't lend itself to just any kind of music, despite what people like Leo Kotke can do with it. They're an absolute bitch to fingerpick. But if you can identify enough songs (beyond Supertramp's Give a Little Bit) that you think aren't complete unless played on a 12-string, then go for it. I'm not opposed to unusual guitars; in fact, I own and regularly play a baritone guitar, but I spent two years researching them to make sure it wasn't just a passing fancy. If you can come out of that research on the other end and feel like it's a guitar that'll keep you busy, then go for it. And as long as you're going for it, get the one you love ... not the one you can put up with.
Yep, same thing I found about the current models. I would expect that the 12-string models will be coming sometime soon.... B)

You are also quite right about the market for used lefty 12-strings.... I have searched high and low with VERY little success..... It seems that most of us lefties tend to hold on to the guitars that we buy....lol

I also thought about the Baritone..... How is that, by the way? Would love to hear that in action..... ;)

I am certainly being cautious, as I don't want to settle. If I get to a point where it is all too much, and I can't find something that fits just right, I could very well scrap the whole idea.... :unsure:

Thanks again... :)


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neverfoundthetime
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Tue Apr 09, 2013 2:11 pm

Although I have been playing my Takamine 12 string for the past 25 years MJ, I don't consider myself any kind of expert. The choice of Rosewood or Mahogany will be interesting but its the sound and feel that will sell it to you. I have hardly ever had a better 12 string in my hand than my Tak which is basically a really good copy of the Martin. I did try an Irish make (which may or may not come to me by the time I finish this post... ah, an Avalon, see pic.) Marc was with me when I briefly tried it, Jumbo body running around 3.5 grand. A beauty for sure.

I do recommend a Jumbo or Dreadnought without a cutaway. You have more top surface and therefore a bigger sound and I have never needed the cutaway and I can't imagine you needing it either ;-). Mine has electronics too which is nice to have but not really necessary.

I use very light strings as heavy strings are absolutely MURDER to play x 12. Much pain is in store for you if you go that route but you may be tougher than I. :-) Barring heavy strings will cramp your hand within minutes too. I remove the E-octave string and play with 11 strings as you can get a decent bass out of it which is difficult using all 12.

Check the fretting on the E and A strings, at fret 2 and 3 especially, as you need that a lot. There is a big discrepancy on my low E string at frets 2 and 3 and I actually have to tune it down slightly if I playing a G chord in the song. This seems to be a bigger problem with 12. You will be strumming a 12 more than picking so make sure she strums well.

I have heard Justin Hayward on a Guild 12 and the sound is awesome. Bill's Seagull suggestion is solid if price is important... great value in these guitars.

Keep us up-to-date! Image


thereshopeyet
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Tue Apr 09, 2013 3:20 pm

Jason
Interesting topic, I've wondered about 12 string guitars.
I came across the following video a while ago.
In the video he suggests tuning down a whole step to take some tension off the bridge and make it easier to play.
Do many folk tune down Standard Tuning even on a six string, to make playing easier?
Although it would reduce the tension making it easier to play, wouldn't it change the sound of the guitar if playing with other folk
tuned to Standard Tuning?

Dermot

:)



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Tue Apr 09, 2013 3:53 pm

neverfoundthetime wrote:
Although I have been playing my Takamine 12 string for the past 25 years MJ, I don't consider myself any kind of expert. The choice of Rosewood or Mahogany will be interesting but its the sound and feel that will sell it to you. I have hardly ever had a better 12 string in my hand than my Tak which is basically a really good copy of the Martin. I did try an Irish make (which may or may not come to me by the time I finish this post... ah, an Avalon, see pic.) Marc was with me when I briefly tried it, Jumbo body running around 3.5 grand. A beauty for sure.

I do recommend a Jumbo or Dreadnought without a cutaway. You have more top surface and therefore a bigger sound and I have never needed the cutaway and I can't imagine you needing it either ;-). Mine has electronics too which is nice to have but not really necessary.

I use very light strings as heavy strings are absolutely MURDER to play x 12. Much pain is in store for you if you go that route but you may be tougher than I. :-) Barring heavy strings will cramp your hand within minutes too. I remove the E-octave string and play with 11 strings as you can get a decent bass out of it which is difficult using all 12.

Check the fretting on the E and A strings, at fret 2 and 3 especially, as you need that a lot. There is a big discrepancy on my low E string at frets 2 and 3 and I actually have to tune it down slightly if I playing a G chord in the song. This seems to be a bigger problem with 12. You will be strumming a 12 more than picking so make sure she strums well.

I have heard Justin Hayward on a Guild 12 and the sound is awesome. Bill's Seagull suggestion is solid if price is important... great value in these guitars.

Keep us up-to-date! Image
Chris:

I was hoping you would stop by, as I knew you have a Tak 12-string. Takamine is another of the brands that has a positive reputation in the 12-string market. Thanks for your view on the cut-away. My thoughts are that I probably would not need it because I can't imagine playing too many leads with a 12-string. Little riffs/licks can be played closer to the nut on the higher strings anyway. I am mostly interested in it for strumming purposes to get that really full sound. Not so much for the picking or lead playing.... B)

I had read that the lighter gauge strings were much better, and that some folks leave out the dbls on the B and e strings, playing only 10. They get pretty good results, and it eliminates some of the chimey sounds.

The Guild models that Bill mentioned can be found in quite a few YT clips, and they sound pretty amazing too... Not overly familiar with the Seagull, although I have heard of them. Read some less than stellar reviews a few weeks ago, so I am currently leery of them (again, the disadvantage of being a lefty and not being able to test guitars out properly for myself)... :(

Thanks again, Chris, I really do appreciate your perspective as a 12-string player. Also, thanks for the heads up on the fret issues.

Jason


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