Re String?

thereshopeyet
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Sun Dec 13, 2015 9:22 pm

Daryl Wrote:
It makes it easier to play certain songs. .... i.e Yesterday
McCartney possibly didn't want the standard tuning sound.
So when Yesterday was originally written, it's possible he tuned down to get that "sound" compared to making the guitar playability easier.

Just trying to get my head around when to tune down and when not to tune down.

:)


wrsomers
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Sun Dec 13, 2015 10:38 pm

I have always tuned my guitar down a half step. Mainly to put a lot more songs in my singing range; but it also has the effect of easier playability as mentioned above. The easier playability comes not only from less string tension but lower action without worrying about string buzz (lower action because of the capo at the first fret). Sometimes lowering the action at the nut has that effect and I've found that using a capo at the first fret doesn't cause any buzzing. Another advantage to de-tuning is less stress on the guitar neck. One of the disadvantages to de-tuning is that it's harder to get the guitar in perfect tune because the strings are manufactured to sound their best at A=440.

Measuring at the first fret my nut height is set from string one to string six thusly: .014", .016" ,.016", .016, .016", .018" . My action at the twelfth fret for the E strings is .0625" and .090" respectively. The neck relief is .004-.006". For me this is an ideal setup and extremely playable. I don't think it would work for bluegrass picking but it works quite well for fingerpicking and medium strumming.

Bill


benfield113
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Mon Dec 14, 2015 4:29 am

Another reason for down-tuning is if a song requires a single string to be tuned up :e.g. / EAEGBE (I am learning such a song at present). Rather than risking breaking the fourth string, it makes sense to tune every string down a tone (DGDFAD) and use a capo. And, by the way, I keep one guitar in lower-than-standard tuning normally - it's amazing how many songs are recorded this way. If you want to play along with them it makes sense and it's often easier on the vocals even if you don't.


Cheers

Andy


TGNesh
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Mon Dec 14, 2015 4:58 am

Don't make it more complicated than it is Dermot. ;) A lot of reasons are already pointed out. There is no set rule as in when to tune down or not. It's sometimes very personal too.

If you tune down because it's easier to play....well I'd say, also keep playing a guitar which is not tuned down. You don't want to get used to a certain set up and then not being able to comfortably play a 'normally' tuned guitar. At least, I wouldn't want that. I want to play ány guitar, no matter how they're set up or tuned.

Just an example, Neil has two guitars, well three. But two are Claxtons, pretty much the same, except for the rosette. Still one is a tiny easier to play, but he makes sure that he keeps playing both. But for example, his son Coree always plays a guitar tuned down a whole step, because of, I think, mainly the sound. When he was playing his dad's guitar at one point (when I was there), he mentioned several times that he really had to get used to it again.

Same thing applies for someone who plays electric guitar all the time. It's way easier to play. A few of my students do and i keep encouraging them to play their acoustics as well, which they fortunately do. :)

All in all, the only reason why I personally would tune down, it doesn't happen a lot, is for vocal range reasons and to be able to play in a guitar friendly key. Usually, that's just a half step down, to play in the key of G or Em, that's pretty much it.

As for Yesterday, why do you think so? :dry: I personally suspect that he wrote the song on piano first, key of F, fits his voice perfectly. On guitar, not a friendly key. Tuning it down, key a whole step up to G is an easy fix, sounds great too. Just speculation. Neil might know. ;)

Ness

thereshopeyet wrote:
Daryl Wrote:
It makes it easier to play certain songs. .... i.e Yesterday
McCartney possibly didn't want the standard tuning sound.
So when Yesterday was originally written, it's possible he tuned down to get that "sound" compared to making the guitar playability easier.

Just trying to get my head around when to tune down and when not to tune down.

:)


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neverfoundthetime
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Mon Dec 14, 2015 6:33 am

All the info you need on tuning down has been delivered Dermot so you don't need my advice but I just wanted to add that I often tune down a half step to help the vocals, so many songs will be more within range. I don't find too much difference in the playability, well, not compared to changing to a 12 string! That I am used to. I have permanently moved from A=440 Hrz to A=432 Hrz tuning because I believe it is a better tuning and forms more complete resonant shapes and patterns when you make cymatic shapes on a sound board using salt or sand to show the patterns being formed. So it seems a healthy tuning to me. It used to be the old standard tuning. Its about 2/3 of a half step down so it is also easier on the vocals. Yeah, if I play with someone or the record, I have to tune back up but that takes 30 seconds and my Guitar Tools app on the iPhone (which allows you to change the A= reference point easily), no problem. Nearly all the time, I am playing on my own, probably most folks are.

I would repeat here that all altered tunings are making something easier to do, not harder.

Nice to see a hijacked thread again! :laugh:


TGNesh
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Mon Dec 14, 2015 8:53 am

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :P

neverfoundthetime wrote:

Nice to see a hijacked thread again! :laugh:


wiley
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Mon Dec 14, 2015 10:21 am

Nope, sorry, not everything;

I talked with Richard Hoover about a comment a young man once told me about one should ALWAYS keep tuned down a half step, creates less tension and, in the long run (according to the young man) is easier on the neck, making it 'last' longer?

You can guess Richards reply, can you not? - Simply put "why" - *See final thoughts for the short verzion*

String theory involves a lot of physics - as much as you want or as little. Just know this - most luthiers and/or mass builders and their engineers build the specific guitars to withstand not only the 'normal' tensions but much, much more. Same with the strings, usually takes a force of 2x of the 'normal' tuning of a specific gauge and intent to 'break' a string.

The fact that when bending (which is done at any time one pushes any force on a string) is easier, of course, under less tension, making the half step down (in effect - lowering the tension) 'easier' to 'bend'. The first fret actually bends the string not only between the nut and first fret but requires a bit of additional friction as the string 'bends' beyond the nut, towards the tuners. The further away from the nut, the further away from the needed additional tension beyond the nut. There are 'lubricants' that are used to decrease this tension that can be applied to the grooves on the nut and the saddle. They serve to decrease the friction there.

We think of the two points of 'fixed' being the nut and the bridge. The strings beyond those two points can and do make up 15% to 30% of the total length of our stings. And, in reality those portions do move. That's why the twelfth fret is easiest to push, its the 'mid' point between the two 'fixed' points of the nut and saddle. The different types of materials used to make the saddles and the nuts play a point as to how much friction they create, less friction of course being desirable. Needless to say, that is just one of the functions of that material.

Then there are things like how much 'angle' on the headstock is 'perfect' or, the 'break angle' of the points beyond the saddle and/or nut. Even the length of the strings beyond those points comes into play.

Then, of course, is the 'multi scale' fretboard. That 'fan fret' looking thing. Once again, it's an attempt to allow for easier play and intonation (which when down tuning does change the intended setup from the builder)

The new guitar I have has several features which, to me, seem to work in that part of the physics. First, the bridge is more 'centered' on the lower bout, instead of the body. Second, of course, is the 3/4 inch offset between the 6th and 1st strings (the multi scale/Fan Fret). *E is 3/4 of an inch longer than the e * Third, the positions of the tuners are further away from the nut than 'usual'. Add in the 'scalloped' headstock. The break angle from the nut to tuners are lessened in this manner, the break angle from the nut to the entry point at the bridge is 'normal' and beveled yet not slotted. (The pins are slotted, not the bridge itself)

The 'setup heights' from the factory lie between the Tacoma (low) and the Gibson (high). The nut depth I 'typical' (bone nut and saddle)

The neck itself is more 'Taylorish', more like an electric would be. Thinner than my usual taste.

All I can say is this guitar is the easiest to play, out of the box, I have ever purchased, The intonation is incredible and the drop tunings stay intonated. The sound across the board is higher treble and deeper lows than normal, well balanced. So, perhaps, some of those 'theories' actually work. Then again, I'm supposed to have hearing aids in my ears most of the time (like, except when sleeping).

FINAL THOUGHTS;

"Why do I spend so much time and money on engineering these things...."

So yes, half step or more does make it easier to bend, because the tension and friction is decreased beyond the 'norm'. Therefore, easier to play.

Yet it also changes the intent of things like bracing and such, and usually is not nice to the intonation.

There are other factors which can, in one way or another, make a guitar easier ( or harder ) to play (bend the stings). The cheapest and easiest way is a proper set up, a setup to which the tech or luthier sets the guitar up to YOUR needs and style.


willem
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Mon Dec 14, 2015 12:44 pm

Dermot, to be short, it was "old man" by Neil Young that a singer I work with said "can you play it a key down" I said " no problem",, all I did was the capo off :laugh:

And what a diffrents for him

I must confess that I tuned down a whole step for my little hands. (Capo on 2) :laugh:

when you tune down or you put a capo on you lose some overtones.

Willem


PS,, just try it


wrsomers
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Mon Dec 14, 2015 5:56 pm

Well let's try to get this "highjacked" thread back on track :) I just put some Martin MM11 Retro strings on my D28, just to see if I would like them. They are monel (nickel alloy) and touted by Martin to give the guitar a more woody mellow sound.

When I first put them on, I didn't like them; mainly because they sound a lot different than phosphor/bronze and the sound was foreign to me. But after several days, I have to say that I like them a lot. There is definitely a more woody, mellow tone. Also they are much easier to fret than the phosphor/bronze strings. They bend easily. I can bend D# to E on the 2nd string using only my pinky finger; usually I'd have to use 2 fingers to do that bend. One drawback: if you press hard on the strings they will go sharp easily (that's probably one of the reasons I didn't like them at first as I tend to press harder than I need to).

The sustain is great and I hear a moderate amount of overtones. I've heard they don't go well with Taylor guitars; probably because Taylors have a brighter tone.

Anyway, if you're looking to experiment, I'd suggest you give them a try. Approximately $7.50 USD.

Bill


thereshopeyet
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Thu Dec 17, 2015 5:14 pm

Chris Wrote:
Nice to see a hijacked thread again!

Hijacked.......... then Again !!! :ohmy:

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

:woohoo: :woohoo:



Thanks for the hijack responses !

Hijacked :dry: ...... sounds like another great title for the TimeZoneZombies to build a song from :ohmy: !

Dermot

:blush:


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