Collaboration-related question

[willem]

So TG-friends, I have a question:

I actually just asked something like this out of curiosity in the Old Man-collab-video, since Al mentioned that playing with others was an eyeopener, since there is so much more to be aware of.

And quite a few TG-ers have been visiting each other and have gotten together to play music the last year, (or maybe they play with others in general), so my question is, those who have played with others, what are the things that you notice? What are the things that you need to be more aware of? What is harder? What is easier? What do you like best? What are the downsides? What have you learned?

Alright, sorry more than one question!

Again, I'm just curious and interested to hear about that.

Ness

[willem]

I'm courious too,,I know after our meeting that Anton is goin to use a plectrum...lol.. and it was a lot of fun,,I learned if I remember well,,learn the whole song lyrics..

:laugh: :cheer: :laugh:

[suziko]

Great question, Ness. I think there are tons of things to be learned from playing with others. For one, I realized that probably the most important thing is learning to play together. If you're playing by yourself, it doesn't matter what your tempo is (assuming you keep to a steady tempo). Also, you can even tune your guitar to 443 Hz and no one will notice. But if you are all playing together, you'd better keep to the same tempo, and having everyone tune to 440Hz is a good idea

Suzi

[dsmarion]

Ness,

While I don't live close enough to have had the pleasure of meeting and playing with other TGers, I have played with quite a few people over the years. The answer to your question is that it depends. If you are playing with someone who has learned a song exactly like you learned it (true with other TGers) it would be easier because you both will play the song (and all the breaks and changes) the same quickly. When you play with people that have learned songs on their own you will find that you will have a harder time getting it together because of differences in the way you play the song. It becomes more of a challenge when you add more instruments (bass, drums, keys) to get everyone on the same page. And also then you may need to listen for a specific cue for changes (maybe a key riff from another guitar or the keyboard, perhaps a particular drum cue, etc). In fact the first time you ever play with a drummer you will find it very different than sitting at home playing by yourself. So you will need to pay attention to the other musicians at lot.

Not sure why you are asking this question - you have played with many others have you not?

Scott

[willem]

I think Scott has it by the right answers,,let only one play the hammerons and riffs etc,, and be tuned the same or atleast in tune,,and keep playing when you hear something you or an other did a bit wrong,,,

I learned alot when playing together the last time with Anton and were I tryed to play triads on that Xmas song,,we fond it A challenging to do just a pity that it was'nt used just out the curiousty if it was something that could be used.

Today I played a bit along with my automatic acompanniment from the keyboard,, I found the counting very difficult but i could see the counting on screen and got a bit use to it.

W.

[AndyT]

I always find the hardest thing is timing. The better my timing, the easier it is to adapt and play with others. The worse the timing, the harder.
I have a friend I like to jam with because he has good timing and the two of us play very well together. We can play off of each other.
Then I have played with people that keep their sense of timing in their pocket. They are very difficult to play with.

It's like trying to follow the old man on the freeway that speeds up just before he slows down, and pauses before he speeds up. Arrrrgh!

[AcousticAl]

I responded in the 'Old Man' thread..

Many things come to mind, Ness..

You can't stop and start over when playing with others. Once you start- you need to keep going.
I become more nervous about messing up when playing with others, and it shows in my playing and singing.
You need to be aware of other people's playing, while being focused on your own as well. Their tempo vs. yours, volume etc.
That's what goes on in my mind anyways.
Singing while playing is not an automatic thing for me yet- and I still need to pay a lot of attention to chords and lyrics. Nothing is automatic for me yet.

What was evident to me at the latest get-together was how few songs I actually have DOWN all the way through! That was one of my main goals when I joined TG-- was to not be a 'bits & pieces' player anymore.

So I need to revisit how I'm learning songs in general. I tend to work on one or two for a while- post a version of it- then forget about it. My resolution is to change that this year, and get more songs that I can PLAY IN MY SLEEP.

I was very impressed with how Chris played so many songs effortlessly over our time together.

BTW- I don't want you to think it wasn't a great time. I just made some realizations while there.

[michelew]

Fantastic question Nessa! Nice way to kick-start the thought provoking forum threads again.

I haven't played with others live for a long, long, long time (well other that a few ukulele campfire song sessions in my lounge room). But, even when playing against a recorded track (e.g. a self collaboration) it's in large part about listening and adjusting as required. The obvious ones are:
- changes in tempo and keeping the right speed and linked into the other players, as already mentioned (I slowed down in a big way at one point in "Ain't no Sunshine" and had to do the same in the bass-line),
- keeping your volume appropriate so that you're not overpowering anyone or being too quiet,
- phrasing, especially while singing,
- trying to fill out the sound by playing important solos or other musical lines to keep it interesting and representative of the original (like the harmonica part in 'Heart of Gold').

I've actually noticed a lot of things you need to be aware of by watching the collaborations that have been uploaded on TG. For example Nessa, the way you were listening and adjusting your tempo and dynamics when you were accompanying Corina.

I think I said it last year, but this year I really need to find a way to play with others. I think it will help to consolidate my skills and really improve my motivation. Just campfire songs would be great, playing for fun and for the social aspects of it, well for fun.

BTW Al - you are not alone. I feel exactly the same and it is a major source of my lack of self-confidence in my guitar playing skills. It's been suggested to me that I need to play for fun a lot more and stuff that's easy too. I definitely aim to do that this year.

AcousticAl wrote:

...

What was evident to me at the latest get-together was how few songs I actually have DOWN all the way through! That was one of my main goals when I joined TG-- was to not be a 'bits & pieces' player anymore.

So I need to revisit how I'm learning songs in general. I tend to work on one or two for a while- post a version of it- then forget about it. My resolution is to change that this year, and get more songs that I can PLAY IN MY SLEEP.

I was very impressed with how Chris played so many songs effortlessly over our time together. ...

Great question Ness. I look forward to reading everyone's responses.

Shel

[neverfoundthetime]

For me its important to fit in and be able to adjust to someone else, be sensitive to the mood and flow. That means noticing where you need to step back or need to take initiative. If everyone steps back and no one steps forward, things go flat. If two or more push themselves forward there can be a clash. I'm fine with shrinking into the background and enjoy stepping up to the plate if it works out for everyone else. In earlier years I was always following and benefited from that. I learned the importance of playing through to the end. The Canadian hook-up was very easy-going. We did discuss what we might do but we also ended up doing other stuff and it was good. I really enjoyed the way everyone just went with the flow on Whatever's Written in Your Heart with just a couple of try-outs and delivered the goods!

[lueders]

Vanessa, you've really got me thinking about this... (great post...nice assist Al)


Vanessa Wrote:
And quite a few TG-ers have been visiting each other and have gotten together to play music the last year, (or maybe they play with others in general), so my question is, those who have played with others,

what are the things that you notice?

A collaboration needs to be equal parts fun, focus, and feel of the thing. If you and your band mates ain't "feeling it" ...then it probably ain't happening, man...sounds cheesy but I think it is true.) Everyone has to know their role and be on the same page as much as possible! Another Captain Obvious statement here but, it helps to play with people you truly enjoy being around...this is evidenced by TG's growing catalog of musical get-togethers.

Playing with others is 95.9% of the time, more enjoyable than playing solo. I have had some great experiences (i.e. Wisconsin and a handful of others) and some real crummy ones. Self-indulgent, ego-maniacs don't magically cease to be self-indulgent ego-maniacs once you start playing with them...sorry, but it is true. INMHO playing with someone like that is going to lead to one of two outcomes: 1.) It won't work well musically and it will sound like crap 2.) It will somewhat work musically, but still ends up sounding uninspired and still sound like crap...I believe this is true unless you are Cream. In that case you can play three completely different sounding things and it works out just fine lol!

What are the things that you need to be more aware of?
The progression & structure of the tune obviously. (A good one to remember I think, is that the first chord in the progression is "usually" the key you are dealing with.) I do have a hard time keeping the song structures straight in my head oftentimes even though it is a basic type thing...how many verses choruses etc etc.
And of course you have to lock into the time signature and be aware of the accents. (Easier said than done sometimes.)
The overall feel of the song is paramount....dynamics, accents, what chord the thing revolves around (or feels like home) & about a gazillion other things.lol!

What is harder?
It depends on the song, but REALLY listening to what is going on melodically & harmonically while simultaneously keeping the balance of fun, feel & focus in equal proportions. If you go too much in one of the three directions you're probably in trouble.
Not that I would know, but I still think singing & playing at the same time is about the hardest thing...especially songs that don't provide a big fat generic chordal wash of sound to sing over. Ya know? I envy anyone who can sing period...but especially being able to sing complex wandering melodies over slightly diverted sounding harmonies.


What is easier?
If someone is laying down a good solid rhythm it is comforting to know, I can play less and have it sound like more if I'm playing over the top.

What do you like best?
I like feeding of the weird collective energy within the group...again cheesy...but you asked.
I also, like being the person who sits back and minimally adds little things that hopefully serve the song. I secretly want to be David Rawlings (Gillian Welch partner & guitarist) But then again I could be totally happy playing rhythm guitar in some cow-punk band.

What are the downsides?
In a band/group (I'm guessing at least) a vocalist doesn't have as much freedom to add or drop beats here or there (to serve the lyrical content) like the Country Blues greats would so often do. Unless the band/group knows ahead of time.


What have you learned?

Don't laugh, but prior to Wisconsin I dad no idea that 440 was concert pitch! Prior to this, I simply looked at my tuner and when the needle was straight up & down & the light was green than the note must be clean! I have since noticed that my tuner reads 440 Hz when the needle is straight up. I had heard the term concert pitch but never knew it was specifically 440. Okay there is my slightly embarrassing omission for the day. lol!


P.S. Al I know exactly what you mean about wishing I could perfectly remember these tunes like a human jukebox. I've got a lot of bits & pieces myself... But if you really think about it I believe that just comes down to playing them over & over & over. I get frustrated sometimes how quickly these things are forgotten but ultimately it just comes down to repetition and three months later more repetition when they start to fade from memory. (both muscle memory & intellectual memory)