Big Bad Bear - Who's Afraid

BigBear
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Wed Jul 08, 2009 6:50 pm

Chasplaya wrote:
Liberalisation of gun laws perpetuates the circle of violence...
Chas- I'm sorry to take issue with you but I feel you are dead wrong on that point. If your statement were true Australia would have eliminated all their gun-related crime. But just the opposite occurred.

This country, and probably yours as well, are completely impotent to disarming the bad guys. So what's the easy (read politically expedient) solution? Make it harder for law abiding citizens to own guns of course! They tried this approach with liquor and then heroin, cocaine, meth, pot and on and on. Let's outlaw cocaine and no one will use it right? Wrong.

The underlying problem, and the reason taking away gun ownership will NEVER work, is there are simply too many guns in the world. Guns were designed to kill people. But when there were too many guns and not enough people to kill, the guns were sold, or dumped or just given away. Surplus military hardware is where the whole problem started. Of course, it is a much bigger problem than that now. There are so many guns in the world right now that even the Diety would have a hard time removing them all.

It is a very sad fact but the only thing that deters a criminal in the threat of violence against them. Prison time is no deterant at all!!

As a polite society we have delegated our personal safety to law enforcement. But the only thing the police can do, despite their good intentions, is process the crime scene after the fact. Unless we are willing to accept a police state (which most Americans aren't) there aren't enough police to protect even a small fraction of us.

One of my favorite sayings is "an armed society is a polite society". But this is a fact. People have nothing to fear from law abiding gun owners. Sure, there will be crazies that will always go from law abiding to psycho in a split second. But most of these people gave signals that there was something wrong. We need to learn to read them better!

But stricter gun laws won't prevent that. We tried to restict assault rifles in the USA. Colossal failure. We tried to reduce the capacity of magazines. All that happened was the bad guys had bigger mags. Every attempt to restrict gun ownership has been a failure and only burdened the law abiding citizen further.

I carry concealed all the time (with a concealed carry permit in two states). Not because I'm paranoid but because I feel a responsibility to my family to protect them and me. I may become a victim of gun violence due to circumstance beyond my control but I'm going to do my best to go down fighting. Without a gun I have no chance against an armed assailant! :)


AndyT
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Wed Jul 08, 2009 9:00 pm

As much as I would love to disagree with you Bear, I'm afraid I have to agree. As a Minister, I feel that guns were made to kill and even having one means that you are ready to kill.

However, I grew up in the backwoods and we hunted food for the table. I became a marksman so that I did not waste bullets because they cost so much. I have no problem hunting food. I do not like 'sport' hunting because it serves no purpose. And of course, I abhor the killing of other people.

Having a gun and the right to carry it is supposedly a right in this country. Too bad our politicians do not agree because an armed society is a polite society as Bear said above.


BigBear
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Wed Jul 08, 2009 10:25 pm

AndyT wrote:
As much as I would love to disagree with you Bear, I'm afraid I have to agree. As a Minister, I feel that guns were made to kill and even having one means that you are ready to kill.
I really, really wish I was wrong on this because admitting that I'm right means that man is incapable of controlling the most violent among us. Guns are truly horrible things. I used to be an avid hunter but I've pretty much lost my enthusiasm for killing things in the name of sport. Don't worry, I haven't turned into a some wacko anti-hunter, I just don't enjoy killing things like I used to.

But just because I wish something isn't the way it is doesn't mean I don't take all reasonable steps to prepare to defend myself and my family. To do otherwise is naive and reckless. It isn't about machismo, it's about survivial in a very violent world. Sad but true!


AndyT
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Wed Jul 08, 2009 10:50 pm

You are correct. Today's society is not capable of controlling violent people. Prison is no deterrent to them, and even worse, God is not either because they did not grow up with a solid spiritual foundation. When God was taken out of our schools and public institutions the crime rate went up and hasn't stopped yet. We need to bring God back into this country before its too late.

EDIT:

If you are interested in knowing more about our founding fathers stand on God, then check this out from last weekends service:

http://www.enewhope.org/videobeta/index.php?id=8

The first 10 minutes or so is our new Miss Hawaii. Then is a tribute to our troops. Then Rick Green will give a talk on our Forefathers and what they thought of separation of church and state.

00:00 to 10:30 Miss Hawaii
10:30 to 15:30 Tribute to our troops
15:30 on Rick Green's talk on our Forefathers


BigBear
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Thu Jul 09, 2009 2:00 am

AndyT wrote:
You are correct. Today's society is not capable of controlling violent people. Prison is no deterrent to them, and even worse, God is not either because they did not grow up with a solid spiritual foundation. When God was taken out of our schools and public institutions the crime rate went up and hasn't stopped yet. We need to bring God back into this country before its too late.
So true, but that reminds me of the Graham Nash song, Winchester Cathedral, "...so many have died in the name of Christ that I can't believe it all...".

Faith in a just God is no deterrent to violence, only a weak justification. As a Christian I believe in both God and Satan. I'm convinced that the dark one sends his legions, the violent criminal element, to test us. Only the Day of Judgment will tell us if we passed the test! We still have much work to do in my view!

Man, I must be tired. This is a long way from guitars! Time to change the subject!


AndyT
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Thu Jul 09, 2009 2:06 am

What??

Winchester Cathedral
(by Geoff Stephens)

Winchester Cathedral
You're bringing me down
You stood and you watched as
My baby left town

You could have done something
But you didn't try
You didn't do nothing
You let her walk by

Now everyone knows just how much I needed that gal
She wouldn't have gone far away
If only you'd started ringing your bell

Winchester Cathedral
You're bringing me down
You stood and you watched as
My baby left town

Oh-bo-de-o-do oh-bo-de-o-do
Oh-bo-de-o-do de-do- duh


RicksPick
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Thu Jul 09, 2009 2:30 am

Sshush now people, Bear needs his sleep

Can anyone give us a lulabye?



RicksPick


Chasplaya
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Thu Jul 09, 2009 3:53 am

Well its very difficult to argue with people who have a constitutional right to carry firearms. I hear what you say about laws about gun control not working cos only the good guys adhere to them. But as a Police Training Manager who oversees Firearms training to 650 officer in our jurisdiction one of my concerns is that nobody teaches private Firearms holders in a like manner, ( I am concerended we don't train our cops enough) further most gun related deaths throughout the world are people having their own weapon turned on them cos no one taught them about Firearm retention. Plus no one really teaches private Firearms holders about the tunnel vision effect when the adrenalin starts pumping and then.. can you really use the firearm when the crunch comes! Further most handguns are not sufficiently accurate at more than 10 meters, I am talking firing under duress here not on some comfortable range, also talking about using a firearm when live rounds maybe coming back at you. Handguns can give a false sense of security. We train our officers that the weapon of choice every time is their M4 rifle, we also train about body mass shots not fancy shots to wound or incapacitate. I wonder how many current gun holders would continue to carry if they were to see a sucking chest wound made by a 9mm from a weapon they had fired it's not a pretty site. Hunting for food no problem with that although I wouldn't do it, no need thats what the supermarket is for, sport hunting should be banned. Target competitions great stuff I used to do that myself. SO I'm not anti guns I'm just concerned that at times we are a bit cavalier about the whole deal all over the world.


BigBear
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Thu Jul 09, 2009 12:04 pm

AndyT wrote:
What??

Winchester Cathedral
(by Geoff Stephens)
Sorry! The song is called "Cathedral" by Graham Nash. Although it does mention Winchester Cathedral. It was off of CSN, their first album without Neil Young.

Six o' clock
In the morning I feel pretty good
So I dropped into the luxury of the Lords
Fighting dragons and crossing swords
With the people against the hordes who came to conquer

Seven o'clock
In the morning here it comes I taste the warning
And I'm so amazed I'm here today
Seeing things so clear this way
In the car and on my way to Stonehenge

[Instrumental (Piano)]

I'm flying in Winchester cathedral
Sunlight pouring through the break of day
Stumbled through the door and into the chamber
There's a lady setting flowers on a table covered lace
And a cleaner in the distance finds a cobweb on a face
And a feeling deep inside of me
Tells me this can't be the place

I'm flying in Winchester cathedral
All religion has to have its day
Expressions on the face of the Savior
Made me say
I can't stay

Open up the gates of the church and let me out of here
Too many people have lied in the name of Christ
For anyone to heed the call
So many people have died in the name of Christ
That I can't believe it all


Now I'm standing on the grave of a soldier that died in 1799
And the day he died it was a birthday
And I noticed it was mine
And my head didn't know just who I was
And I went spinning back in time
And I am high upon the altar
High upon the altar, high

[Instrumental (Strings)]

I'm flying in Winchester cathedral
It's hard enough to drink the wine
The air inside just hangs in delusion
But given time
I'll be fine

Open up the gates of the church and let me out of here
Too many people have lied in the name of Christ
For anyone to heed the call
Too many people have died in the name of Christ
That I can't believe it all

And now I'm standing on the grave of a soldier that died in 1799
And the day he died it was a birthday
And I noticed it was mine
And my head didn't know just who I was
And I went spinning back in time
And I am high upon the altar
High upon the altar, high


BigBear
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Thu Jul 09, 2009 12:28 pm

Chasplaya wrote:
Well its very difficult to argue with people who have a constitutional right to carry firearms.
Chas- every point you make is completely valid. I wonder if our different perspectives come from NZ not being as violent as the US? This country has very serious immigration problems, gangs from many countries violently opposed to each other, a serious drug problem, lax enforcement of existing laws, a gutless government and an apathetic populace. And that's the positive side! :lol:

Owning and carrying firearms is no panacea for violence. Will guns turn a bad situation worse, sometimes. But guns have often been the difference between life and death. If only one law abiding citizen survives a violent encounter because he could defend himself then I believe it's all worth it.

You are also correct about the training aspects of gun ownership. We don't require nearly enough training to obtain concealed carry permits. I've invested heavily in training and have been told that I've had far more training than the majority of police officers. But it took time and money. Both of which the average citizen won't commit to.

I had to laugh a little about your comment regarding accuracy. There was a famous shoot-out a few years ago wherein a local cop fired 27 rounds at a target less than 10 meters away and never came close to hitting anything! So much for training! Most gun encounters occur much closer than 10 meters, often point blank. Only the police are allowed to shoot at "stand off" distances.

It's a fascinating debate that rages daily in this country. You have the city dwellers who generally are more liberal and anti-gun and the rural guys (like me) who believe that owning a gun is a birthright!

BTW, almost all sheriffs in this country support concealed carry laws. We don't cause problems because we are better trained and regulated!


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