Gibson raided by Feds, big story, comments and thoughts here..
neverfoundthetime wrote:
Very profound and logical Mr Hayward. If demand disappears due to regulation then supply will dry up, alternatively the makers will take there business elsewhere. Who wins not the eventual buyer as should that happen invariably costs go up despite cheaper labour!
This is exactly the kind of thing that makes me sick. I love this country, but I really fear the government. They are totally far far out of control.
If it were possible, I'd have them all labeled as traitors and deport them. ANY agency that does this kind of thing for such a stupid reason needs to be shut down.
Makes me wonder if Osama Bama is a Fender lover...*sarcasm alert*
If it were possible, I'd have them all labeled as traitors and deport them. ANY agency that does this kind of thing for such a stupid reason needs to be shut down.
Makes me wonder if Osama Bama is a Fender lover...*sarcasm alert*
andyt wrote:
come on now andy, I doubt Obama even new this was going on. what about the times Gibson was raided under Bush. Was he a gibson hater?This is exactly the kind of thing that makes me sick. I love this country, but I really fear the government. They are totally far far out of control.
If it were possible, I'd have them all labeled as traitors and deport them. ANY agency that does this kind of thing for such a stupid reason needs to be shut down.
Makes me wonder if Osama Bama is a Fender lover...
- neverfoundthetime
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The Bush years made me sit up and take a long hard look at WTF was going on in the US of A. I was a huge fan of Obama as he was rising (anything but Hillary!) but he's practically turned into Bush (as did Blair) by now. I think it makes no difference at all who is head honcho, it looks like the US has been bought and sold.
Check out Jim Marrs' books:
The Rise of the Fourth Reich
The War On Freedom
Rule by Secrecy
Sorry for the politics, it was about Gibson, but it all happens in the political stew.
Check out Jim Marrs' books:
The Rise of the Fourth Reich
The War On Freedom
Rule by Secrecy
Sorry for the politics, it was about Gibson, but it all happens in the political stew.
I'm not sure if Justin Hayward has his finger firmly on the pulse of this story - or on the problems of Brazilian rosewood supply.
According to their CEO, Gibson were not raided for using illegally obtained Brazilian rosewood, but for importing ebony fingerboards from India which were then finished in the USA. It's the finishing process which, it is claimed, is illegal.
And the problem with Brazilian rosewood seems to have been grossly over simplified by JH. It's not just a case of planting more trees - stand back and in 100 years harvest them. Habitat loss is making that impossible as more and more land is turned over to farming. That's why CITES have classified them as 'vulnerable' and made the logging of living trees illegal.
Stuart
According to their CEO, Gibson were not raided for using illegally obtained Brazilian rosewood, but for importing ebony fingerboards from India which were then finished in the USA. It's the finishing process which, it is claimed, is illegal.
And the problem with Brazilian rosewood seems to have been grossly over simplified by JH. It's not just a case of planting more trees - stand back and in 100 years harvest them. Habitat loss is making that impossible as more and more land is turned over to farming. That's why CITES have classified them as 'vulnerable' and made the logging of living trees illegal.
Stuart
- neverfoundthetime
- Posts: 48
- Joined: Sat Aug 01, 2009 2:14 pm
- Status: Offline
I guess I'll watch the video to the end next time before I post!
Stuart is right the issue is about the working of the fingerboards (Indian ebony and rosewood) in the US. Although the Indian government did not have a problem, an over-zealous reading of the amended (2008) Lacey Act (1900) by the US government lead to an armed raid on Gibson, the second in 2 years. The first, concerning Madagascar wood, lead to no prosecution. Gibson have documented their wood in India at export, in the US at import and even have a further covering letter from the Indian government and state that they are supplied by the same suppliers with the same materials as all the guitar makers in the US but only they have been targeted. The armed raid and behaviour of the troops involved is a scandal in itself, but the fact that the gov. told Gibson in writing that "they were better of out-sourcing the work to Madagascar" is outrageous.
There is legislation being proposed in Congress to safeguard anyone possessing items made of "illegal" wood unknowingly and also to protect items made before 2008 so that you can travel in and out of the US with your guitar. That would be a useful modification but its the radical interpretation of the Lacey Act and the storm-trooper tactics eagerly used by the government which should be ringing all the alarm-bells.
I can't find much info more up-to-date than this:
Stuart is right the issue is about the working of the fingerboards (Indian ebony and rosewood) in the US. Although the Indian government did not have a problem, an over-zealous reading of the amended (2008) Lacey Act (1900) by the US government lead to an armed raid on Gibson, the second in 2 years. The first, concerning Madagascar wood, lead to no prosecution. Gibson have documented their wood in India at export, in the US at import and even have a further covering letter from the Indian government and state that they are supplied by the same suppliers with the same materials as all the guitar makers in the US but only they have been targeted. The armed raid and behaviour of the troops involved is a scandal in itself, but the fact that the gov. told Gibson in writing that "they were better of out-sourcing the work to Madagascar" is outrageous.
There is legislation being proposed in Congress to safeguard anyone possessing items made of "illegal" wood unknowingly and also to protect items made before 2008 so that you can travel in and out of the US with your guitar. That would be a useful modification but its the radical interpretation of the Lacey Act and the storm-trooper tactics eagerly used by the government which should be ringing all the alarm-bells.
I can't find much info more up-to-date than this:
One thing I believe Justin Hayward got right is what will happen when Slash or Jimmy Page get a guitar confiscated at a US border. That list of names could be considerably longer, too. Clapton, Neil Young, etc. etc. Can you imagine the public outrage when any artist of that caliber loses a prize instrument to the misfirings of the Lacey Act?
On the political hypothesis side of this thing, I looked today for the current status of the legal (ridiculous, but legal) action against Gibson. I didn't find anything. It's like this raid took place, there was some noise about it, then nothing. I'm not much into political conspiracies unless there's some pretty good evidence, but try this on for size: remember how everyone wondered why only Gibson was targeted? Gibson bought the Indian woods in question from LMI, which is owned by Bain Capital, which was owned by Mitt Romney. Coincidence? Six degrees of separation? Maybe it's nothing. Maybe it's something... Whatever it is, Gibson was done wrong by the US government, and it isn't fixed yet.
EDIT: It seems I was posting at the same time Chris was. I knew Henry Juskiewicz had testified to congress, but I didn't know there was any legislation pending. I hope it materializes soon, but right now the US congress can't agree on much.
On the political hypothesis side of this thing, I looked today for the current status of the legal (ridiculous, but legal) action against Gibson. I didn't find anything. It's like this raid took place, there was some noise about it, then nothing. I'm not much into political conspiracies unless there's some pretty good evidence, but try this on for size: remember how everyone wondered why only Gibson was targeted? Gibson bought the Indian woods in question from LMI, which is owned by Bain Capital, which was owned by Mitt Romney. Coincidence? Six degrees of separation? Maybe it's nothing. Maybe it's something... Whatever it is, Gibson was done wrong by the US government, and it isn't fixed yet.
EDIT: It seems I was posting at the same time Chris was. I knew Henry Juskiewicz had testified to congress, but I didn't know there was any legislation pending. I hope it materializes soon, but right now the US congress can't agree on much.