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Hi Neil and TG-ers,

I was hoping that you could/would answer the following question:

Jason Mraz' 'I won't give up' is in the key of D. Still in the bridge he suddenly throws in a C and an A7/C#, how would you call that, change of key? Change of mode? And which ones? Mixolydian?

Then at the end, Jason plays this song obviously in lots of different ways, but in some recordings he ends it by throwing in a Bb, then C/Bb and finally D. So what mode is that? Or what is happening there? I've seen such a progression in several other songs and am just wondering what it is theoretically.

Hope you can shine some light on it, thanks!

Ness

(starting at 4.22)

Hi Ness,

One of the most confusing things about writing and analyzing music is there are no rules, only guidelines and common practice. Of course this statement might be its own oxymoron but we can save that philosophy for another day.

To shed a bit of light on this I would say that there are two different things happening here and one is the C chord in the key of D definitely is hinting at the Mixolydian mode. I was just going over this yesterday with a student in regard to Fire And Rain, as a matter of fact. In order for a key change to happen you have to establish the first key and then later establish the second key. In this case nothing else ever becomes a new tonic so no key change. A common composition tool is to borrow chords from other keys, usually closely related. That is what is happening with the hint at D Mixolydian here.

The addition of Bb and C/Bb is a different thing, really just adding some chromatic dissonance to change the sonority a bit. It almost undermines and confuses the tonic but creates a very compelling sound that could be announcing the end. It actually sets up the return to D very well as long as it doesn't get too far out.

Check out the ending to Evergreen to see another example of this- chords changing chromatically over a pedal point bass. Get back to me on that...

Neil

Gosh, thank you so much Neil!!! Really, really appreciate you taking the time to get to this! :cheer: :woohoo:

And alright I got it! 'NO RULES'!

I of course have checked out Evergreen. I know the song quite well (as in listening to it), but the ending never occurred to me, at least not like this, so cool! C to Db/C to D/C to Eb/C to D/C to Db/C and finally ending on C (at least my sheets are in C), I just lóve such a line, which I indeed do in Jason Mraz' song!!

So, in the case of Evergreen the chord descends and ascends in half steps, chromatically. Would you call descending/ascending in whole steps also chromatically as in Jason's song? Sorry for my lack of knowledge in that. :S

In anway, truly appreciate your response!!

Ness

nesh16041972 wrote:

Sorry for my lack of knowledge in that. :S


Ness

You're kidding Ness right?! I was lost after you said "Hi Neil and TG-ers" :laugh:

I really need to get into this theory thing!

tovo wrote:

nesh16041972 wrote:

Sorry for my lack of knowledge in that. :S


Ness

You're kidding Ness right?! I was lost after you said "Hi Neil and TG-ers" :laugh:

I really need to get into this theory thing!

I got warm fuzzy feelings in my belly when she asked for help!! Not sure what the warm fuzzy thing was about :blink:

Mixolydian

chromatic dissonance to change the sonority

hmm, a feeling of being outside oneself with colorful audio in the sky, a result of too many tequilas? :side: :woohoo: :laugh:

Guys, you totally crack me up!!! Hahahaha! :laugh: :laugh:

A great laughing out loud start of my morning! :laugh: :laugh:

Ness

The addition of Bb and C/Bb is a different thing, really just adding some chromatic dissonance to change the sonority a bit. It almost undermines and confuses the tonic but creates a very compelling sound that could be announcing the end. It actually sets up the return to D very well as long as it doesn't get too far out.
-Neil

I put this through google translate and there was smoke and whirings coming out of my laptop! But it made feel all warm and fuzzy as some distant part of my brain seemed to get something... almost. But I do sympathise with you Tony, Neil-to-Aussie in google translate when he's flying is not for the weak-hearted! :laugh:

Actually, this one of my all time favourite TG answers and I will be trying to work it into casual conversation at the first opportunity! Great question Ness!

Hahaha! You're too funny Chris! :laugh:

Anyway, am glad the question made you think about this stuff again!

neverfoundthetime wrote:

The addition of Bb and C/Bb is a different thing, really just adding some chromatic dissonance to change the sonority a bit. It almost undermines and confuses the tonic but creates a very compelling sound that could be announcing the end. It actually sets up the return to D very well as long as it doesn't get too far out.
-Neil

I put this through google translate and there was smoke and whirings coming out of my laptop! But it made feel all warm and fuzzy as some distant part of my brain seemed to get something... almost. But I do sympathise with you Tony, Neil-to-Aussie in google translate when he's flying is not for the weak-hearted! :laugh:

Actually, this one of my all time favourite TG answers and I will be trying to work it into casual conversation at the first opportunity! Great question Ness!

My neighbour was recently visiting India (Delhi) and she took ill while she was there, I'm sure she said it was chromatic dissonance she had :blink: She said she didn't use tonic and any sound heard from her was far from compelling. :laugh: :laugh:


Tom N.